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RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#76: May 31st 2013 at 7:22:04 AM

[up][up] The answer would be that the Joker has "died" many times before; it never sticks, and at a certain point you give up hoping that a guy will stay dead when you kill him.

indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#77: May 31st 2013 at 7:31:54 AM

This also has the problem of making the villains completely physically unthreatening
First rule of adversarial storytelling - never make the hero more powerful than the villain.

The problem chiefly with Superman and Batman is that they so far outclass their respective opponents, that the entire conflict hinges on their own lack of willingness to finish the job for good. Supes is a Physical God having trouble keeping down one guy with all the powers of a bald Donald Trump. And Bruce Wayne has resources comparable to Tony Stark's, yet while Iron Man regularly blows up other Powered Armor wearing city-busters, Batman can't be bothered to do away with a pathetic sideshow freak. You see, his personal morals are far more important than the lives of countless civilians caught in his private war on crime. [up]And even if killing the clown doesn't stick, openly acknowledging his Joker Immunity makes the entire conflict pointless. Rather than "Villains exist, but heroes stop them", the message becomes "Villains exist, and heroes let them" - and that's not a story I'd like to read about.

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#78: May 31st 2013 at 8:25:16 AM

I sense a disturbing "Heroes should execute supervillains on the spot!" trend in this thread.

You guys know they have no legal authority to do that right? Its not Batman's fault the criminal justice system in Gotham never seeks the death penalty for the Joker. It's not Superman's fault the IRS doesn't take a closer look at Luthor's books on a regular basis.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#79: May 31st 2013 at 8:51:17 AM

[up] It's more like "when you're that much more powerful than your villains, you really should have stopped them already". I've noted how Spider-Man's villains can easily wipe the floor with him, so he has to use all his wits just to keep up, much less try and kill them; Doom is usually beyond the reach of the Four; and Magneto can literally drop a bridge on the X-Men - they're all strong enough to hold their own and not be at the hero's mercy on any given day.

Mind you, the Bat has no legal authority for Patriot Act-style surveillance, grievous bodily harm, and torture as well, but that never stops him; and whenever Gotham's criminal justice system tightens the noose around Arkham's finest, it's strawmanned into guys like Lockup who are portrayed as just as insane, showing that no, reliance on regular law enforcement is not an option. Which is a Family-Unfriendly Aesop on its own, to boot.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#80: May 31st 2013 at 8:59:40 AM

Superheroes have no legal authority to be superheroes, period. The much-cited Citizen's Arrest claims fall flat as soon as you begin actively going out of your way to find crime to fight. That's vigilantism, and vigilantism is very illegal.

Now, with that said, I'm not advocating that superheroes should just kill all the supervillains. Why is there that False Dichotomy? Why do you have to be either the Punisher or Spider-Man? I'm advocating that superheroes should put winning the fight above the villain's wellbeing. If the villain can be apprehended nonlethally, then go ahead and do it. But if the hero is ever in a position where he has to choose between killing the villain or letting the villain win, take the goddamn shot; and also that going out of your way and endangering your life in order to catch the Joker when he's falling towards a vat of molten steel or something that he put there to kill people with is ridiculous.

That's the difference between cold-blooded murder and killing an enemy combatant; the necessity of it. The problem with DC heroes is that it's never necessary; the heroes are so far above the villains that they never have to be put in that situation. Putting a blade in the Joker's throat because he's strangling the life out of you is something that never comes up; the Joker is not enough of a physical threat for it. Batman can effortlessly take down an infinite number of his villains nonlethally without ever being pushed to that "back against the wall, his life or yours" point; or, when he is, there is always an alternate method that allows him to sidestep it by virtue of being Batman.

The fact that the heroes can always win every fight while restraining their own abilities for the sake of ensuring the villain's safety at the end of the fight means that the villains have never been and will never be capable of actually threatening the hero. If the greatest challenge Superman has to face in defeating you is keeping himself from exploding your skull from the punch, you are not a threat.

edited 31st May '13 9:01:12 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#81: May 31st 2013 at 9:19:24 AM

Superheroes have no legal authority to be superheroes, period.
Except, of course, when they do. I've noticed this discrepancy that Marvel's Avengers get regular oversight by government organizations like S.H.I.E.L.D., and it's considered a proper safeguard; at the same time, any attempt to reign in the Justice League by anyone not wearing a mask is treated as the muggles not knowing their place, daring question the "Gods Among Us"TM. JLU's Cadmus arc was really bad about this.

As DC's heroes are generally safe from being harmed by their respective villains, allowing them to hurt and kill innocent bystanders looks more than a tad hypocritical. Conversely, even Spider-Man has killed on occasion, when the situation really called for it. He really does take that responsibility that comes along with his power.

edited 31st May '13 9:20:01 AM by indiana404

ATC Was Aliroz the Confused from The Library of Kiev Since: Sep, 2011
Was Aliroz the Confused
#82: May 31st 2013 at 9:36:09 AM

Superheroes are allowed to be superheros because they save people and do good.

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books
VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
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#83: May 31st 2013 at 12:35:33 PM

On the subject of Batman killing people, I quite by coincidence happened to read Vendetta in Gotham right before I checked this thread today. In it, the mafia sends a suicide bomber to a children's play in which a senator's son is performing (this was 1993, so suicide bombers weren't really a thing yet). Batman arrives just as the guy is about to explode, and throws him out the window, where he (the bomber) explodes to death, but everyone else is safe. This actually isn't portrayed as the wrong thing to do, and Batman isn't overly upset about it, because hey, it's all he could have done at that point.

...Mind you, in Judgement on Gotham in the same volume, he is visibly upset when he thinks he's killed Judge Death, even thought the cop who witnessed everything insists that he was only acting in self-defence.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#84: May 31st 2013 at 12:46:30 PM

See, that's good. Throwing the suicide bomber out the window and letting him blow himself up is a good way to resolve that; he's not putting himself or anyone else in needless danger in order to protect the life of a man who knowingly and deliberately strapped himself to a bomb, but he's not ruthlessly and mercilessly killing everyone either.

And he should feel bad about killing Judge Death. Taking a human life should leave a bad taste in your mouth. It's hard and unpleasant, even if it was in self-defense. If he could brush it off and go, "Pssh, killing is no big deal," that is when it would be a problem. In cold blood, killing someone should feel wrong. But in the heat of the moment, the villain's wellbeing and safety should be the last consideration.

That's the thing about violence. Sometimes in a fight between two people who are both unwilling to surrender, one of them dies. It's not a toggle. It's not so simple that death only happens if you willingly choose for it to. If you're a good person, killing your enemy should haunt you. It should be something you have nightmares about. It should wear on your soul. But if you've appointed yourself to the station of a civil servant and have taken it upon yourself to be the hand of justice, protecting civilians from crime, that possibility is a responsibility you need to be prepared to accept.

There should never be a situation in which the hero loses a fight or the villain escapes because the hero is unwilling to take a life. That should haunt the hero just as much, because it means the hero has failed in his responsibilities. If the Joker escapes from prison and starts killing folk, that's the prison's fault. But if Batman has the Joker against the wall in a bloody and desperate scuffle, manages to get control for a moment, then hesitates because he's afraid he'll kill the Joker, only for the Joker to blindside him and escape...then Batman himself is a failure, and the people who will die for the Joker's next escapade is directly on his head.

If you are so concerned with the wellbeing of all living things that you are unwilling to take a life under any circumstances ever, then you have no business being in any position that uses violence for conflict resolution.

edited 31st May '13 12:48:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#85: May 31st 2013 at 2:13:03 PM

Personally, I consider it a matter of proportionate response. Spder-Man for example avoids killing, but he usually fights common robbers and animal-themed mercenaries, rarely dealing with unrepentant killers like Carnage. Thus, they don't really warrant the death penalty anyway. The Punisher, on the other hand, deals with career criminals, rapists, human traffickers, drug dealers, serial killers - people that really won't be missed. And while gunning them down has taken its toll on his psyche, he's nowhere near Batman's If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him! mental conundrum. If anything, he once told Daredevil exactly the opposite - that by not taking the shot when he can, he feels like an accomplice. Also, he's officially a wanted criminal himself, a vigilante actually treated as such.

Conversely, making the DCU just a little Lighter and Softer won't be a bad move. I've stated my preference for Mad Scientist!Luthor, to which I add Clown Prince Of Crime!Joker, rather than the murderous lunatic he's nowadays written to be. He doesn't need to kill people left and right in order to make a statement, and the Bat won't garner so much flak for not doing away with him. If the hero's response range never goes as far as killing, then don't put him against villains that deserve it.

ATC Was Aliroz the Confused from The Library of Kiev Since: Sep, 2011
Was Aliroz the Confused
#86: May 31st 2013 at 2:14:42 PM

I never saw why people think that the Joker is such a great villain, anyway.

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books
Tiamatty X-Men X-Pert from Now on Twitter Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: Brony
#87: May 31st 2013 at 2:26:01 PM

[up] The Joker is a great Archetype. He's Chaos to Batman's Order. He's Batman's equal and opposite half. The darker Batman is, the darker Joker becomes. When Batman is engaging in torture and brutal beatdowns, Joker reacts with murder. When Batman is a little more laid back, Joker is more playful.

The Joker basically keeps Batman honest. Without the Joker around, Batman's need for order would ultimately lead him to tyranny.

edited 31st May '13 5:35:47 PM by Tiamatty

X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#88: May 31st 2013 at 5:26:56 PM

[up]

With the Joker around, Batman's need for order would ultimately lead him to tyranny.

edited 31st May '13 5:27:17 PM by kkhohoho

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#91: May 31st 2013 at 6:22:47 PM

I think people are forgetting that most superheroes are volunteers. They're not under any obligation to fight crime; they just do it because they like helping people, so who are we to critcize them for not doing enough to help people?

Batman could decide tomorrow, "You know what? I've gone above and beyond to help Gotham City, and I think I've done enough. I'm retiring." He'd be well within his rights to do so; he's already done far more to fight crime than could reasonably be expected of anyone. So if he continues to fight crime, but with the caveat that he won't kill anyone, I'd say don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#92: May 31st 2013 at 7:21:43 PM

I'm not criticizing them for not doing enough to help people, I'm criticizing them for cocking it up when they do. The problem with amateurs doing the work of a professional in an emergency situation is that amateurs have a good chance of screwing it up. If Spider-Man smashes through a window in the middle of a hostage negotiation and one of the hostages gets shot because of it, then Spider-Man's help actually made the situation worse.

There is a reason that medical professionals tell you to stand by and wait for a professional to arrive when someone is on the ground bleeding and dying rather than try to administer medical care yourself. They may coach you through some basic techniques you can do to help, but if you pick up a scalpel and try to operate on them in the street, you will go to jail, because no matter how much you wanted to help and make things good again, your help probably just killed someone. If you are an amateur and you want to do the job of an Emergency Professional, you better damned well not screw it up, because the consequences of botching your attempt to help can often be worse than if you hadn't done anything in the first place.

edited 31st May '13 7:29:34 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#93: May 31st 2013 at 7:36:45 PM

I'm thinking of this Batman story in The Nineties, where there was this deformed guy named the Ogre and his super-smart ape sidekick going around Gotham killing the guys involved in the shady government experiments that had turned them both into monsters. At some point, naturally, Batman steps in to stop them, but they kick his ass. They let him live, however, since they are dead set on not harming innocents (as a matter of fact, they were even relatively human to their victims, putting them to sleep before executing).

With Oracle's help, Batman learns all about the torturing project that claimed the lives of all its test subjects but the Ogre and the Ape. By this point, there's only one scientist alive, the project's leader. Batman arrives in time to save him, but not before he shoots the Ape dead. Now really pissed off, the Ogre wants to kill him without the anesthesics, but Batman steps in between them, telling the Ogre he'll make sure Dr. Slimeball will go to jail. Reluctantly, the Ogre agrees, and Batman... just lets him go. Like that. When Dr. Slimeball yells a What the Hell, Hero? at Batman about it, Bruce just punches the lights out of him and tells him he was the real monster there.

I always liked that story. It may have gone against Batman's black and white stance of the matter, and you certainly can argue valid points pro or against it, but...

ATC Was Aliroz the Confused from The Library of Kiev Since: Sep, 2011
Was Aliroz the Confused
#94: May 31st 2013 at 7:37:56 PM

Aww, now I want to read a whole collection of Ogre and Ape comics.

They deserve their own series, dang it.

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#95: May 31st 2013 at 7:46:43 PM

And then there's Ten Nights of the Beast, where Batman just leaves the KG Beast locked up alone deep at the sewers hoping he'll die of starvation.

sabrina_diamond iSanity! from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
#96: May 31st 2013 at 8:28:46 PM

Bruce Banner (AKA The Green Hulk) suffers from Dissociative Personality Disorder, the Green Goblin suffers from strong schizophrenia... I'll come back when I'm a little less fuzzy minded

edited 31st May '13 8:29:24 PM by sabrina_diamond

In an anime, I'll be the Tsundere Dark Magical Girl who likes purple MY own profile is actually HERE!
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#97: May 31st 2013 at 10:13:21 PM

If you are an amateur and you want to do the job of an Emergency Professional, you better damned well not screw it up, because the consequences of botching your attempt to help can often be worse than if you hadn't done anything in the first place.
It's actually even worse than that - if you intervene in an ongoing police investigation, any evidence you might bring in actually becomes inadmissible in court, since an anonymous vigilante isn't considered a reliable witness or investigator. That might as well be the reason why the Joker hasn't been fried on the chair already - they actually can't build a stable case, since most of the evidence has been contaminated by the Bat. All they can do is lock him up in Arkham... and we know how it goes from there. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#98: Jun 1st 2013 at 12:10:14 AM

Wait, why is evidence turned up by a vigilante inadmissable, while evidence turned up by a criminal ratting out their associates is?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#99: Jun 1st 2013 at 12:26:59 AM

Because it's impossible to prove any connection whatsoever between evidence a vigilante handed you and the crime that transpired. From a legal perspective, the vigilante is a biased party that could be inventing evidence specifically to ensure an outcome that he desires to see. Evidence tampering can get a suspect's entire case thrown out of court - and then it can never be taken back to court due to Double Jeopardy. The Joker murders six people and walks out the door a free man because Batman's involvement invalidated his trial, and he can never be retried for those six murders. Legally, the Joker has never committed a single crime.

The snitch doesn't actually give you evidence; he testifies in court. He may actually tell you where to find evidence, in which case law enforcement officers will go and retrieve it with no involvement from the snitch in that process; no hands but the law's ever touch it. But all in all, his actual purpose is to stand in front of a judge and say, "Frank Malone did it. He's the killer." This very important part of the legal process is completely ignored by superheroes; I've never once seen Batman actually testify to the Joker's crimes in a courtroom. But it's still insufficient on its own without corroborating evidence; it's a piece of the conviction pie, but not condemning enough without concrete evidence; evidence which, if Batman stole it from the crime scene, is tampered evidence and is inadmissable.

edited 1st Jun '13 12:28:14 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
indiana404 Since: May, 2013
#100: Jun 1st 2013 at 12:28:40 AM

[up][up] The latter comes under police supervision, and usually isn't enough on its own for a solid case. That, and the criminal usually has a name and social security number to identify him as a witness, while an anonymous person can only deliver a minor tip. He can't testify in court.

Honestly, I think this is a major flaw in the "Gotham's justice system never seeks the death penalty" argument - in lieu of substantial evidence, they likely can't. So actually, it appears the Bat has been perpetuating his war on crime on both ends - neither allowing the justice system to finish the job, nor doing it himself. Now that is insane.

To contrast, Spidey's foes are usually problematic in the capturing department; they leave a large enough trail of destruction to be identified independently, plus there's plenty of photographic evidence brought in by one Peter Parker, licensed photojournalist.

edited 1st Jun '13 12:38:46 AM by indiana404


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