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You are Hitler, now take over Europe

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Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#126: Oct 2nd 2014 at 3:30:04 PM

Pretty sure the same was true of Russia, though, and look how that worked out.

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demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#127: Oct 2nd 2014 at 6:54:41 PM

That wouldnt have helped Hitler achieve his strategic goal, which was taking over as much new territory as possible.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#128: Oct 2nd 2014 at 7:59:36 PM

I don't think any kind of alliance with them was in the cards.

The Soviet Union officially expressed interest in joining the Triple Entente at one point but it was the Germans who would have nothing of it. (Idiots...)

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#129: Oct 2nd 2014 at 8:03:31 PM

After reading The Devil's Virtuosos, I think Hitler could have actually crushed Soviet Union if he had allowed Manstein and Guderian do their jobs. See there were two main tactics proposed by the Wehrmacht: One was a more careful, methodical approach to strike the Soviet Union in three different points and destroy it one part at the time (proposed by the ever-so-careful German Supreme High Command) and the other being a all-or-nothing charge straight to Moscow (proposed by the combined mad genius of Manstein and Guderian, the men responsible for the defeat of France).

Hitler in his infinite wisdom chose not to favor one or the other, but instead favor both to the detriment of everyone. If even with such monumental tactical stupidity the Wehrmacht got as close as it got to beating the Soviet Union, imagine if he had simply sided with Manstein and Guderian. Moscow would have fallen and the Soviet Union would fall in utter chaos without its dear leader.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#130: Oct 3rd 2014 at 10:01:26 AM

Isnt that what Napoleon did? Anyway, the whole point of invading Russia was to seize the oil and wheatfields in the south.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#131: Oct 3rd 2014 at 10:35:09 AM

I think that equating the potential capture of Moscow with the total defeat of the Soviet Union is wrong.

While,undoubtly, the fall of its capital & major railroad hub would be a serious blow to the USSR, it wouldn't be a fatal one.

By the time the Germans were outside Moscow, most of the Soviet government had evacuated to Kuybyshev note  where they were planning to resume business as usual. The soviet (ever-growing) industry had also been moved beyond the Urals, where it was safe from German attacks & raids.

One must also not forget that a large chunk of the population of european USSR had also been forced into a mass exodus into Asia. Which would undoubtly bolster the already existing fresh, numerous & battle-ready Siberian divisions.

So Hitler finds himself in a situation where he's, at best, locked into endless guerilla war that's likely to bleed out him faster that it does the Soviets. Or, at worst, his troops are sitting in a ruined city, in the middle of winter, waiting for the inevitable Soviet counter-attack.note 

edited 3rd Oct '14 10:38:08 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#132: Oct 3rd 2014 at 12:09:03 PM

ok, we talk about germans and japanise, one is time for the real thing: you are mussolini, what do you do?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#133: Oct 3rd 2014 at 12:12:57 PM

Enjoy your punctual trains

Oh really when?
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#134: Oct 3rd 2014 at 12:14:17 PM

Take lessions from Franco & stay neutral.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#135: Oct 3rd 2014 at 6:41:42 PM

@Demarquis: That was the main excuse, but I'd say the main reason was Hitler not wanting competition and his intense hatred of Slavs and Socialism. There were other, easier sources of oil proposed by several officers (namely Rommel), though none come to mind right now.

@Logo P: The thing is, if Hitler followed Manstein's gambit, Moscow would have fallen a lot sooner (assuming Manstein's gambit would work as envisioned) and the Soviet government would have a lot less time to transfer its assets and members to other places.

It probably wouldn't earn Hitler victory either way, but after reading the Devil's Virtuosos, I'm of the opinion it'd have been a lot more succeful.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Belisaurius Since: Feb, 2010
#136: Oct 3rd 2014 at 7:58:37 PM

It's rather interesting that most of Germany's misfortune boil down to Hitler being Hitler. Ironically, British inteligence was trying their hardest to kill him for most of the war.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#137: Oct 3rd 2014 at 8:06:40 PM

I thought they stopped eventually because they realized he'd do more damage to Germany alive than dead.

Oh really when?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#138: Oct 3rd 2014 at 9:49:14 PM

There is also the fact that hitler survived so many atempts that they give up.

really, have hitler been a fictional chararter everyone will call that a plot armour of the worst kind

edited 3rd Oct '14 10:28:48 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Belisaurius Since: Feb, 2010
#139: Oct 4th 2014 at 6:24:05 AM

This is also where so many rumors about Nazi occultism come from. How else did Hitler survive a bomb going off not five feet from him? Especially when said bomb killed just about everyone else in the room.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#140: Oct 4th 2014 at 8:39:02 AM

Well, that and the fact Himmler had a bunch of Nordic runes everywhere, a Supervillain Lair for a castle, and practicsed pagan rituals in said castle.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#141: Oct 4th 2014 at 9:47:24 AM

And dont forget all that pre-war "Thule" nonsense. The Nazi Party had a tendency to attract nut-cases.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#142: Oct 4th 2014 at 10:29:25 AM

At least Hitler could have used those mystical rituals to try and make a deal with the Geat Old Ones or something.

edited 4th Oct '14 10:30:01 AM by LogoP

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#143: Oct 4th 2014 at 10:54:33 AM

Heh. Why else do you think we put pentagrams on the sides of our tanks and planes? Eh?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144: Oct 4th 2014 at 12:26:08 PM

[up][up] He kind of tried. There's a book called Hitler's Holy Relics that is very enlightening in how Hitler emplolyed old mysticism to help him up (though in a tangent, Hitler was more of a supertitious agnostic than anything. He asked for help of all pantheons and gods if he thought it would help him, but had loyalty and belief in no religion). Which is why he had the Spear of Longinus and the jewels of the Holy Roman Empire with him.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#145: Oct 5th 2014 at 5:00:36 AM

@Not Invading Poland: I'm not seeing it. As someone mentioned, not moving anywhere contradicts Hitler's plan to create Lebensraum and the public sure as hell wouldn't be interested with only what they had at the moment.

So, Hitler needed to have a clear back, so that he's not double-teamed once he tries to attack the other side. Since he was aware of Alliance's general passiveness it all came down to whether we're with him or against him.

So here's a thought: Poland does join The Anti-Comintern Pact, securing Hitler's rear and allowing him to attack West with impunity. How would this play out, assuming Germany has more time to tech up their army - say, up to 1940 - and French still practice Sitzkrieg doing nothing?

demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#146: Oct 5th 2014 at 6:13:38 AM

Depends on whether Stalin can be trusted or will he stab Germany in the back once he's fully engaged in the West? Hitler certainly assumed he would. If Hitler was right about Stalin, then a Russian/Polish alliance attacks Germany while Germany is fighting in France, or maybe during the Battle of Britain.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#147: Oct 5th 2014 at 7:18:14 AM

It's unlikely that the Polish would ever ally with the USSR. The wounds from the Soviet-Polish war hadn't healed yet. And they probably feared the Soviets more than they did the Germans.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
MattStriker Since: Jun, 2012
#148: Oct 5th 2014 at 8:05:49 PM

It goes back a lot further than that. There's almost five centuries of extremely bad blood between Poland and Russia. Simply put...an alliance between Russia, soviet or not, and Poland isn't going to happen unless either side first conquers the other.

demarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#149: Oct 6th 2014 at 5:39:14 AM

Lets see, the main barrier to the Poles joining an alliance with Germany is the number of German speakers within Polish territory, a result of the armistice that ended WWI. Germans still resented that very much in the late 1930's, and bringing the German nation together into one state was practically the entire basis of the Nazi's foreign policy. So there are some real challenges here. The only way I see this working is if Poland gives it's German majority territory to Germany in exchange for territory in Russia. Therefore, a German-Polish alliance attacks Russia almost immediately.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#150: Oct 19th 2014 at 10:46:25 AM

The only way I see this working is if Poland gives it's German majority territory to Germany in exchange for territory in Russia. Therefore, a German-Polish alliance attacks Russia almost immediately.
In that case would the Allies get involved? They could even support the German/Polish alliance against the Communist threat.

edited 19th Oct '14 10:46:35 AM by Antiteilchen


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