TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Superheroes

Go To

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#26: May 20th 2013 at 11:18:37 AM

While I like some things in that article [he has a point on the due process thing, and the "violence having no conquences" thing] I feel ts trying too hard at times. For instance, on the underdog thing, it isn't about being an underdog or not, it's a different type of conflict. Different heroes have different types of conflicts, some of them will be relatable underdogs [Peter Parker is the prime example, as the author just noted], some of them will not.

Loki and Lex are also unfortunate examples of undermatched villains, since they are only at misadvantage physically. It isn't "underdog villain vs powerful hero", it's Brain VS Brawn, the villain in both cases is much smarter than the hero, a better manipulator and with better resources, hence the odds are even.

This gets worse when he tries to confirm with other genres [i.e Sherlock Holmes gets his ass handled back to him througt most of the second film, James Bond spends 98% of Skyfall failing at everything he tries and it always outnumbered and outgunned, Optimus Prime loses all the fights he gets into in Dark Of The Moon, etcetera]. Being a underdog isn't just "being physically weaker".

Why civilians don't act that well in superhero movies? Well, because they're up against supernatural threats, one way or another [that's the entire point of the superhero genre, they're fighting gods], normal people [even trained ones] aren't exactly ready to deal with aliens or giant killing robots.

Now, the article has good points on violence never having a negative outcome for the heroes and their lack of respect for due process, but other than that, I feel it's trying too hard.

EDIT: Also the point on wealth makes no sense, since in The Avengers itself, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Phil Coulson and Fury are [techinically speaking] just government agents with no wealth or power.

edited 20th May '13 11:20:16 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#27: May 20th 2013 at 11:29:31 AM

Regarding the cops in The Avengers I was under the impression that while they were trying to do their job as cops, they weren't able to get a clear picture of the situation and thus couldn't plan an orderly evacuation. Cap was able to give them a clear picture and tell them what routes were safe to evacuate through.

It's not so much that the cops were going "Durr, what should we do with all these civilians" as it was "Holy crap, we've got all these civilians and no idea where to send them".

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28: May 20th 2013 at 12:02:36 PM

I thought he made a pretty good point about nobody notifying the National Guard that New York City was facing an impending alien invasion.

Also, with regards to superhumans being justified in having to do everything themselves because of normal humans being useless against supernatural threats...that's not true. It almost never is. That's more of a problem with the portrayal of Muggles than it is with the Muggles themselves. Black Widow and Hawkeye in the Avengers film demonstrate quite effectively that Muggles can be very effective against the Chitauri; they would have been significantly moreso had the military been alerted that they need to have a presence in New York.

That's actually one thing I loved about the first Transformers movie; a lot of the story revolved around the humans on Earth and their response to the giant alien robot war that just sort of took up residence on their planet. In the climax, a group of soldiers even engages and destroys one of the Decepticons, demonstrating the value and capabilities of a Muggle military force in a supernatural setting.

We're always told that ordinary humans are useless and standard military arms can do nothing to defeat the villain, but that never stands up under scrutiny. A coherent military force would have given the Chitauri invasion a run for its money if not completely slaughtered them, the Destroyer only ever fights a handful of S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who were unprepared for its arrival, ditto for the Iron Monger, etc.

Muggles being worthless is just part of the genre, and the unfortunate implications it carries are there in all their glory. The fact is, the only reason the police can't take down Doc Ock is because if they did, Spider-Man wouldn't have the opportunity to do it.

edited 20th May '13 12:06:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#29: May 20th 2013 at 2:29:38 PM

Okay, so who wants to respond to No. 3, then?

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
recon5 Avvie-free for life! from Southeast Asia Since: Jan, 2001
Avvie-free for life!
#30: May 20th 2013 at 2:51:46 PM

[up][up] Muggles would only be able to take down a supernatural threat with proper coordination, resources, manpower and prep time. The same thing always said of Batman. If an unassuming middle aged guy suddenly picked up the nearest schoolbus and hurled it at a police barricade the cops had better hope that one of their number is Superman in disguise.

edited 20th May '13 2:52:00 PM by recon5

cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#31: May 20th 2013 at 2:56:24 PM

Can't we make a different thread for this? I want to keep this thread on topic.

maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#32: May 20th 2013 at 2:59:16 PM

[up]Isn't this the general superhero thread?

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#33: May 20th 2013 at 3:04:03 PM

So here's the topic of the thread.

If you were picked to adapt any classical super hero story to the big screen, which hero would you choose and how would you go about creating the perfect portrayal of them, to not only the world, but to yourself as well?

You need to consider everything from themes, to sets, to props, to actors; just, go all out. How would you handle development? Would it all be in one film or would it be a trilogy, and would the development follow the trilogy's pattern or would each film focus on the story instead?

Tell me how you would make the perfect superhero film.

No. No it's not.

maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#34: May 20th 2013 at 3:08:53 PM

[up]Blame Tam H 70, then. He posted the link and derailed the thread.

But enough about him, let's talk about you. What would YOUR superhero movie be?

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
cutewithoutthe Góðberit Norðling Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Góðberit Norðling
#35: May 20th 2013 at 3:11:06 PM

I asked y'all first~

maxwellelvis Mad Scientist Wannabe from undisclosed location Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: In my bunk
Mad Scientist Wannabe
#36: May 20th 2013 at 3:18:46 PM

Well, I have this idea about a kid superhero who had parents who were part of some secret hero organization, then he's recruited secretly, then at the lowest point building to the climax, his parents have found out, see that he's outgunned, and have to reactivate to save the day. No specifics yet, sadly.

Also, my She-Hulk idea from the MCU thread. But I'd have to dig deep to find that again.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great
Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#37: May 20th 2013 at 7:18:40 PM

This is something I've thought about a lot.

The problem with (most) superheroes is that they are niche; they may have thousands of loyal fans, but for a movie to be a success you want the general public -millions of people who likely have never even heard of them- to go see the film. Therefore deciding what to keep and what to reinvent or add is always an issue.

In my opinion, they should always start with the comics' stories, but simplify them for the larger audience by leaving out anything too complicated (at least in the early installments.) Look for events that will sell in a typical Hollywood production, just be sure not to change them too radically.

As for which characters I'd love to see adapted in film, I think both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel (the Shazam! one) would work great in live action. I really don't see the problems that DC has had with bringing them to the screen all these years.

(That awful Wonder Woman TV pilot proves how clueless Warner Brothers are about what I just explained.)

FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#38: May 20th 2013 at 7:24:43 PM

You know, I could see a "Mr. A" film, funded by the many wealthy objectivists out there wanting to push the philosophy. Best part, we'd get some excellent action at the time of those guys while the rest of us recognize that Mr. A is as much a hero as the Crimson Bolt was.

^_^ And it dovetails nicely with my desire for a good Hat, Mask, Coat superhero film.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#39: May 20th 2013 at 7:28:24 PM

Funnily enough, I just remembered that Captain Marvel actually DID have a theatrical movie. In 1941. Presumably it won't be in continuity with Man of Steel. Presumably.

edited 20th May '13 7:28:42 PM by Tuckerscreator

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#40: May 20th 2013 at 11:25:15 PM

I said it before and I'll say it again. We need a Vartox movie.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#42: May 21st 2013 at 12:47:28 AM

But he never fired his manly musk rifle at Power Girl in that movie!

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#43: May 22nd 2013 at 9:36:22 AM

The Post-Crisis Vartox is LAME. The Pre-Crisis Vartox was one of the few characters who never lost a fight to Superman- he either won or fought him to a standstill!

cliffc999 Since: Dec, 2010
#44: May 29th 2013 at 12:49:24 PM

re: informing the National Guard that New York was about to be invaded — remember, they had no idea where the invasion was going to come through until after Hawkeye's attack on the Helicarrier. Which took out the Helicarrier's comm systems. Fury has explicit dialogue about trying to get the systems back online... which doesn't happen until /after/ the portal opens.

Plus, there's about what, ten minutes total between Tony's realization of where the portal is going to open, and Loki's actually doing it? Even if we say Tony did radio ahead from his suit, its still going to take an hour for the National Guard just to get spun up, at least.

WarriorEowyn from Victoria Since: Oct, 2010
#45: May 29th 2013 at 1:23:36 PM

There's some truth to what Wong says, although he exaggerates a little. The new Spider-Man film was my favourite of last year's superhero movies precisely because it was an exception, because it did involve effective action by regular people (Gwen, Gwen's dad, the guys with the cranes). It felt a lot more...egalitarian, than your typical superhero movie.

Or maybe it just reflects our wish that there was a billionaire like Stark out there to protect us? And we're wishing for that instead of ... what? The laws and government we have now? You wish that, instead of a government elected by voters, you were protected by one very wealthy, powerful person who operated purely according to his own urges? That's ... kind of weird, isn't it?

This is spot-on. That one line in Iron Man 2 - "I have successfully privatized world peace" - made my skin crawl. No, no, not okay, a random self-appointed person should not have that kind of power.

edited 29th May '13 1:26:47 PM by WarriorEowyn

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#46: May 29th 2013 at 1:43:34 PM

Wong was definitely spot on about that; both about the fact that it's weird, and that it is something people want. At the end of the American Revolution, one of the first things the newly-liberated Americans did was try to crown George Washington as the new king of America.

Democracy is hard, and it's full of difficult choices that not everyone wants to pay attention to. Some people are very happy with the idea of an almighty parent figure; a benevolent party high above them that can solve all their problems, protect them from harm, and just generally ensure that they get to live the best life they can, all out of the goodness of his own heart. The benevolent dictator is most people's ideal form of government.

It also very rarely has any basis in reality whatsoever. It's an escapist fantasy.

edited 29th May '13 1:45:51 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#47: May 29th 2013 at 2:19:57 PM

I've been reading Wearing the Cape recently. The book is frankly a bit amateurish, but one of the interesting sidetopics they pursue is how superheroes would likely upset the balance of power, at least until the government finds a way to replicate the superpowers and/or get the majority of heroes on their side. If a few people are powerful enough to overcome substantial military defenses, suddenly you have a very likely scenario that someone will go around toppling unjust governments. Said "unjust governments" might include ones we think of as mainstays like the U.S. presidency...

I've been rereading the scant Mr. A comics and by golly, I think it would be doable as a movie. It would probably have to include sympathetic police figures who want Mr. A to stop killing criminals before they can go through the justice system, and one would likely have to villainize Mr. A with an All Crimes Are Equal situation where someone performs an illegal act for good reasons but is treated the same by him as anyone else, but it's doable.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#48: May 29th 2013 at 9:50:57 PM

Or maybe it just reflects our wish that there was a billionaire like Stark out there to protect us? And we're wishing for that instead of ... what? The laws and government we have now? You wish that, instead of a government elected by voters, you were protected by one very wealthy, powerful person who operated purely according to his own urges? That's ... kind of weird, isn't it?

I gotta disagree with that assessment. Maybe if you surveyed everyone who ever saw the Iron Man movies, you'll find a small handful who imagined themselves in the role of Innocent Bystander #3. For most people, though, the appeal of Iron Man is much simpler: being a genius billionaire with robot armor and a super-hot girlfriend would be awesome.

Black Widow and Hawkeye in the Avengers film demonstrate quite effectively that Muggles can be very effective against the Chitauri

Black Widow and Hawkeye have the Charles Atlas Superpower; an actual, Real Life Muggle wouldn't be able to do anywhere near as much awesome stuff as they do. Heck, if he were a real person, Hawkeye wouldn't even have been able to make it to the Chitauri invasion; he'd have still been on the helicarrier recovering from the concussion Black Widow gave him.

edited 29th May '13 9:56:35 PM by RavenWilder

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#49: May 30th 2013 at 6:30:44 AM

Muggles, especially of the "trained soldier" variety, are capable of a lot more exceptional behavior than people give them credit for. That being said, none of Hawkeye's bow and arrow tricks actually abide by the laws of physics; Jeremy Renner's talked a bit about that in interviews. His superpower is the ability to make an arrow go wherever and do whatever he wants it to do.

Of course, in a real-world scenario, there wouldn't have been Asgardians, the Hulk, or Iron Man in the battle, and Captain America would just be a C.O. with a shnazzy buzzword title. There also would have been a lot more boots on the ground rather than just six guys trying to fend off the alien invasion. It would have been bloodier, with significantly more casualties. But that's not really a superhero movie, now is it?

Then again, in a real-world scenario, the Tesseract and Loki are also scientifically impossible - and that's not even getting into the space whales - so it's really impossible to say what a real-world scenario would look like.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FuzzyBoots from Outlying borough of Pittsburgh (there's a lot of Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
#50: May 30th 2013 at 6:52:22 AM

FWIW, I read an interview where Renner where he said that he actually studied some archery to try to make things look more realistic, but was told to do Action Movie bow-work because it looked better on film.


Total posts: 126
Top