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ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10751: Jul 8th 2018 at 1:14:34 PM

But, like, imagine being Ryuko and juggling a legion of One-Stars, Dante-style. Just running around and doing that and breaking shit. That's what I want from a Kill la Kill game, not just a bunch of one-on-one fights.

Also, I didn't notice the trailer also said PC. So sue me.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#10752: Jul 8th 2018 at 3:43:37 PM

Kill La Kill is unusually fit for a musou game, isn't it?

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#10753: Jul 8th 2018 at 4:13:04 PM

[up][up] The developers had panel at Anime Expo and they said that their are models of mooks, so there will likely be a story mode thats action focused as opposed to one on one fighting.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Jul 8th 2018 at 7:15:25 AM

Watch Symphogear
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10754: Jul 9th 2018 at 6:22:15 PM

[up][up] Oh, baby! Yes, please! Inject Honnouji Warriors directly into my veins.

Edited by ThriceCharming on Jul 9th 2018 at 8:34:13 AM

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#10755: Jul 18th 2018 at 11:27:42 PM

How about a Kill la Kill strategy game?

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10756: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:40:03 PM

That sounds like a bad fit because Ryuko's one and only strategy is Leeroy Jenkins. Unless the game focused on Satsuki who is a more strategic thinker.

Also, er, sorry for suddenly changing the subject, but I've been reevaluating my Kill la Kill fandom in light of something that's going on on Tumblr and having a kind of moral dilemma. If this isn't the place for this kind of discussion I don't mind if the mods cut it, but I'm hoping other fans could help me figure out where I stand.

Basically, anime fans on Tumblr are taking a stand against what they see as pedophilic content in anime. That means tropes like Really 700 Years Old and Younger Than They Look (and "sexy" teen characters in general). I'm starting to fear that, for simply enjoying Kill la Kill for entirely nonsexual reasons, I'm contributing to a culture that normalizes pedophilia. I'm having a hard time reconciling my love of the show with my desire to be a moral person.

To better illustrate my concerns, here's an excerpt from a conversation I had about this with my girlfriend on Skype (I asked for her permission and all identifying information is removed).

     Open Pesterlog 
ME: Also, there's this thing on Tumblr where anime is being taken to task for allegedly pedophilic content and it's making me feel disgusting for liking things like Kill la Kill.

HER: You are most certainly not disgusting.

ME: There's a lot of questionable things in Kill la Kill, though. Like, a lot of floppage on underage girls. And the really fucked-up scene of Ragyo molesting Satsuki.

HER: There IS. And I've had a tough time reconciling that. .__.

ME: How do you reconcile it?

HER: Mostly with the knowledge that I don't condone this stuff, and that the story has redeeming qualities, and that I think that the story would have been much better served without it.But I'm not sure how comfortable I would be telling people that I like it.

ME: The world is so complicated. Anime fun has moral dimensions I don't want to grapple with.

HER: Me either. ;___; Why can't we just make it less gross?

ME: I wish we could. I don't want to be a bad person for liking shows like Kill la Kill. At least Little Witch Academia has zero grossness.

HER: Exactly. Not even a smidgen.

ME: But if I buy Kill la Kill stuff (like, say, a figurine like Lotte), would I be supporting pedophilic content? Does Kill la Kill really count as pedophilic content? I'm sorry, this isn't the fun conversation you wanted.

HER: It’s okay! I want to help. It is telling the people that make these kinds of things that content that sexualizes teenagers sells. And that IS wrong. x_x

ME: Here's the thing, though. Is it wrong for a teenager to enjoy content that sexualizes other teenagers? Or is it only wrong for an adult to make such content? If so, does that mean that only content made by teens for teens is morally permissible? This is the hole I've fallen into today. Mostly I'm thinking back to being a teen and finding teen characters sexy in content produced by adults. And wondering if that made me part of some problem.

HER: That did not make you part of the problem! I know both you and I didn't know the difference then. It's okay and healthy for teens to explore their sexuality. But when adults decide to specifically cater to teens with sexual content, that's literally child abuse.

ME: Do you think so? Does the fact that characters like Ryuko are drawn to be sexy mean that KLK is child abuse? That's a sincere question. I don't want to be a bad person. For the record, I am NOT sexually attracted to Kill la Kill characters. I just want to know if I'm doing something wrong by watching/enjoying it.

HER: I honestly don't know, that's the thing. ;____; But it's a dark stain on an otherwise wonderful show.

ME: See, I've completely lost track of the line between Tumblr types being moralizing busybodies and Tumblr types actually having a point.

HER: Me too. And I think KLK blurs that line. Do we excuse this kind of garbage if the underlying story has merit? Do we attempt to separate garbage from story? I mean, if we want to draw a hard line on sexualized teens, we'd also have to reject Persona and Dangan Ronpa. The reality is that this garbage is so pervasive in Japanese media that avoiding it is difficult, but you have to do your best.

ME: I don't think Persona has sexualized teens! Does it? I mean, the only example I can think of is when Yosuke makes Yukiko and Chie put on bikinis, and that was played entirely for laughs, not for actual sex appeal. At least that's how I saw it. And Kill la Kill is such a funny and audacious story, like the whole business with clothes secretly being aliens and shit like that... It's so much fun. Such a great exercise in imagination. Like, even if they wanted to make "Ragyo molests Satsuki" a plot point, which I think IN AND OF ITSELF is a legitimate artistic decision, they didn't have to frame it like we're supposed to get off on it.

HER: Well, it has Ann's outfit! And a few of the bonus outfits are... er, racy. And YEAH. I really hate that. I think these discussions are important to have. I just feel like I'm being a monster here.

ME: What makes you say that? :(

HER: I don't want in any way to condone sexualizing teenagers. ._.

Basically, the question is "Is it moral to enjoy an anime that contains sexualized images of teenagers, even if our enjoyment is entirely nonsexual?" and neither of us has an answer. Can you guys please help?

Edited by ThriceCharming on Jul 25th 2018 at 8:41:27 AM

Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#10757: Jul 25th 2018 at 8:17:53 PM

I think the outlook the story has on said content should come into play when judging animes. I see you mentionning the molesting scene and being conflicted about it, but that scene preciesly isn't played for sex appeal, it's supposed to come off as creepy as fuck and establish Ragyo as seriously fucked up. It's certainly not condoning it, in any case. I don't see anything wrong with this in animes precisely because it's supposed to be fan disservice.

And you can extend that type of reasoning to about anything in kill la kill IIRC. when it's not supposed to be creepy, it's supposed to be played for laughs (mako), etc. That's okay in my book at least. When it's purely play for the sex appeal, like in xenoblade 2, that's where I'm not okay with this.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 25th 2018 at 5:28:31 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#10758: Jul 25th 2018 at 8:45:27 PM

I'm meh either way because its all just fiction to me.

Watch Symphogear
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10759: Jul 25th 2018 at 9:02:35 PM

I see you mentionning the molesting scene and being conflicted about it, but that scene preciesly isn't played for sex appeal, it's supposed to come off as creepy as fuck and establish Ragyo as seriously fucked up. It's certainly not condoning it, in any case. I don't see anything wrong with this in animes precisely because it's supposed to be fan disservice.

There are close-up shots of Satsuki's boobs and groin, though, even if the parts that are inappropriate to show are covered. I certainly see that as Fan Disservice, but did the writers/animators intend it that way? Can we be sure of that? Can we be sure they weren't trying to appeal to perverts who get off on that kind of content? The question makes me uncomfortable.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#10760: Jul 25th 2018 at 10:18:56 PM

Basically, the question is "Is it moral to enjoy an anime that contains sexualized images of teenagers, even if our enjoyment is entirely nonsexual?" and neither of us has an answer. Can you guys please help?

I think it's fine, you just have to be honest that maybe it's kind of fucked up. I mean, I'm still a fan of Berserk and Blade of the Immortal despite both being kind of sexually exploitative, I just don't try to pretend they're not.

Doubtless you know this already but KLK is hardly the only anime to sexualize teenagers, maybe not to the same degree, but it's practically ubiquitous. I get your concern and sympathize with you thinking about this, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not enjoying KLK or anything because of it being kind of skeevy but I don't think you have to draw your line here. It's not like we're discussing Birth of a Nation or anything.

I don't think taking a stand against something means you also have to stop enjoying everything that contains it. I can enjoy Made in Abyss but still criticize its manga for its uncomfortably lurid portrayal of children (the anime is better about this, thankfully).

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 25th 2018 at 1:30:07 PM

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#10761: Jul 25th 2018 at 10:32:00 PM

Let's not forget that the vast majority of anime is aimed at teenagers. Are you really going to get mad at a show for providing age-appropriate fanservice? Yes there are pretty strong older demographics, but in Japan these things are normally the equivalent of Saturday morning cartoons.

Kill La Kill is weird, though. The molestation scene struck me as intentionally uncomfortable; yes it's supposed to be sexy, but in the worst possible way. Likewise, the whole thing with Ryuko running around in a garter-belt bikini was kind of a double aesop of "boys, stop objectifying girls" and "girls, don't be ashamed of your bodies." So it's kinda hard to unpack, and certainly more complicated than just dismissing it as pedo.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#10762: Jul 25th 2018 at 10:41:09 PM

I don't think KLK is really meant for teenagers, though. IIRC it aired in a late timeslot in Japan and its manga was published in a seinen magazine.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#10763: Jul 25th 2018 at 10:50:05 PM

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Anime in general is aimed at teenagers (and what I was talking about in the first paragraph), but KLK is weird and is something else altogether.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10764: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:29:51 PM

The thing about the nudity in Kill la Kill is that it falls pretty squarely under Naked People Are Funny until it suddenly doesn't. And when it crosses that line, it is at best vulgar and at worst sadistic and exploitative.

I'm having a hard time articulating my feelings. I'm fixated on the molestation scene and how unnecessary it was to show that to us the way they did. Because of that scene (and a few others, like the one of Gamagoori repeatedly whipping Ryuko, which is also framed like fap bait), I feel like I can't defend/justify my interest in the show. It makes me feel complicit in something awful.

But, on the other hand, I don't want to swear off the show. I hate that it makes me feel like I have no choice because so much of it is great, even inspirational. I love that Ryuko and especially Satsuki overcome extreme trauma and triumph over a monster. I love that the heroes love and support one another so much, and are never ashamed to express it (Ryuko and Senketsu, Mako and Ryuko, the Elite Four and Satsuki, etc). I love that Ryuko forgives everyone who wrongs her, even Ragyo. And I love how funny it all is, how much confidence it has in its batshit preposterous premise.

I dunno, guys. I'm doing a lot of soul-searching and I can't help thinking I've been irresponsible. But I also know I can't just stop liking KLK because its good parts make me too happy. And I don't know if that makes me a bad person.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#10765: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:39:58 PM

But I also know I can't just stop liking KLK because its good parts make me too happy. And I don't know if that makes me a bad person.

It doesn't. Like I said earlier, I'm a fan of Berserk. I have no room to talk about people enjoying things that are sexually exploitative. "I like this, but it's kind of skeevy" is a perfectly permissible opinion to have.

Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#10766: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:12:53 AM

[up][up]I going to began by saying than I think the Kill La Kill does not normalizes pedophilia for a work to do that it needs to show that pedophilia is ok by showing kids in relationships with adults. (I hate to be that guy but KLK would fall under Ephebophilia not pedophilia but were just were just splitting hairs)

If we look a KLK characters most don't look like high schoolers or act like one if you replace the high school with a college most characters wold say the same.

You also need to look at this group on Tumblr how are they acting are they say you can't like any works with what they say has pedophilia content what are they calling they pedophilia content are coming across am better then you because I don't like this work.

To answer the question about is it moral to enjoy an anime it comes down to you how did you feel before you saw the group am also going to point out that most works I can say is it moral to enjoy this most works you can find something that someone will say is not moral or right to like (just look at anything before the 90s and how the treated LGBT people)

But it all comes down to how you feel if you like a work then like it no one should tell you what you can like or don't like it is important to remember that most works will have parts that are questionable you don't need to defend or expand why you like some ones work. Your enjoyment is all that maters.

ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10767: Jul 26th 2018 at 1:23:21 PM

I going to began by saying than I think the Kill La Kill does not normalizes pedophilia for a work to do that it needs to show that pedophilia is ok by showing kids in relationships with adults.

I don't think it has to be quite so specific. Any work that sexualizes children or teens can promote the idea that sexual attraction to children or teens is normal/appropriate/acceptable.

(I hate to be that guy but KLK would fall under Ephebophilia not pedophilia but were just were just splitting hairs)

If you hate to be that guy, then please don't be that guy. Internet creeps love to hide behind ultra-specific terminology like that.

If we look a KLK characters most don't look like high schoolers or act like one if you replace the high school with a college most characters wold say the same.

It doesn't matter that the characters don't look like high schoolers if they are high schoolers. (Besides, Ryuko and Mako definitely do look like high schoolers.) "But she looked eighteen!" isn't a valid legal defense, as the chestnut goes.

Come to think of it, Satsuki may actually be eighteen, which takes some of the edge off, but only insofar as it turns a molestation scene into a "mere" incestuous rape scene. Yech.

You also need to look at this group on Tumblr how are they acting are they say you can't like any works with what they say has pedophilia content what are they calling they pedophilia content are coming across am better then you because I don't like this work.

Like I said in the chat log, Tumblr people love to act holier-than-thou, but that doesn't mean they never have a point. If Kill la Kill or any other anime is giving pedophiles something to look at, that's very problematic.

To answer the question about is it moral to enjoy an anime it comes down to you how did you feel before you saw the group am also going to point out that most works I can say is it moral to enjoy this most works you can find something that someone will say is not moral or right to like (just look at anything before the 90s and how the treated LGBT people)

Before I saw the group, I was disturbed by the rape and whipping scenes, but the rest (lingering boob shots, etc.) didn't really faze me. I kind of accepted it as standard-issue anime wackiness and moved on. But just because I didn't understand the possible implications back then doesn't mean I shouldn't have to reckon with them now.

But it all comes down to how you feel if you like a work then like it no one should tell you what you can like or don't like it is important to remember that most works will have parts that are questionable you don't need to defend or expand why you like some ones work. Your enjoyment is all that maters.

I dunno, I definitely think there are things that aren't okay to enjoy. Content so vile that if you aren't approaching it for purely academic reasons, there's probably something wrong with you. Obviously Kill la Kill is very far from that category, and like I said, I can't force myself to stop liking it. But I want to do all that I can to be an ethical consumer of media.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#10768: Jul 26th 2018 at 1:57:03 PM

I stopped reading when you said you were looking to Tumblr of all places to see what is and isn't pedophilia.

That being said, Kill La Kill is definitely a sexual anime, but it's not geared towards young children and it's not at all meant to be realistic. There's a lot of abuse within it that is not portrayed as okay and a lot of comedic abuse. I don't think it's condoning abuse so much as either using it for slapstick or because villains, you know, do evil vile things.

Oissu!
ThriceCharming Since: Nov, 2013
#10769: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:03:24 PM

If you stopped reading at "Tumblr," then it's no wonder you didn't understand my point.

I'm not saying Kill la Kill posits that rape/molestation is good. I'm saying it sells sexualized images of teenagers to adults, which is wrong, and it makes me uncomfortable.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#10770: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:16:45 PM

... I should have put Joking Mode tags, huh. Or maybe half-serious mode. I didn't actually stop reading, but I do think Tumblr is a really poor place to have any kind of discussion about sexual content in a work, or what pedophilia or grooming is.

Anyways, it's fiction, and Kill La Kill is pretty blatant in being sexual, so I find I have less of a problem with it than I would have with more subtle skeevy scenes in a work geared towards younger kids, for instance.

Oissu!
Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#10771: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:26:02 PM

[up][up][up][up]let me ask you this do you think that violence media leads to real life violence? I can make the same arguments about violence that someone makes about pedophilia.

Are they people getting their jollies off at molestation yes but people will their jollies off to anything I could make a TV show about rocks and find porn of it in less then a day people are just weird.

Are there pedophiles that watch KLK for the sexual stuff maybe but then there are people that watch My Little Pony or any kids cartoon to get there jollies off to.

Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#10772: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:15:18 PM

My two cents on the matter is that just because a work does something wrong does not suddenly make the viewers immoral for viewing it. You don't enjoy the things that it does that are problematic, and in fact recognize them as potentially problematic, so just because you enjoy the show for the things it does right doesn't mean you condone the things it does wrong. Tumblr has a tendency to provoke massive overreaction to things, so while I'm sure there are perfectly valid points being raised, I suspect many are couched in somewhat excessively harsh rhetoric. "Anything that features teens in sexual situations condones pedophilia and is evil and immoral" rather than "this work features these themes and uses them in this way; it does this poorly/well because..." that treats the entire work as though everything about it was built around the negative things rather than those only being a portion of the whole work. This is wrong because this treats the work as though it were written for the sole purpose of expressing those questionable traits rather than being a whole work all its own with perfectly valid themes that happens to feature some flawed, potentially problematic elements.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!
Yumil Mad Archivist Since: Mar, 2016
Mad Archivist
#10773: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:17:39 PM

Yeah the "do pedophiles get off from stuff I liked" seems like a pretty bad argument to me because no matter how inoffensive, unappealing something is, you will find a madman to jack off to it. There's a reason why one of the only standardized rules of the internet is the thrity fourth. As someone pointed out, the exact same reasoning can be made for violence in general, which makes the issue so much broader. To some extent, any work that features a villain doing villainous things by extension sells amoral stuff to the people who watches it.

I think you just can't enjoy anything in life if you decide to go all the way in that reasoning.

Edited by Yumil on Jul 26th 2018 at 3:28:29 PM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#10774: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:21:42 PM

My problem with the term Problematic is that what one sees as problematic is highly subjective.

There are definitely universal ideas that can be, but when you try and break down every element to try and find something problematic is becomes unclear.

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Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#10775: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:50:16 PM

But, like, imagine being Ryuko and juggling a legion of One-Stars, Dante-style.

The devs implied there will stuff like that in the game, likely in story mode.


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