...umm.... a BUNCH of us have been talking about BRAVE spoilers here...
Are you serious.
Come on, people, at least mark your spoilers. Not everyone's seen everything, y'know. Especially since it only just came out like this year.
EDIT: Okay, I'm a bit mixed up on when it came out, but the point still stands.
edited 15th Jul '13 12:18:53 PM by 0dd1
Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.I think Brave won because they wanted Chapman to win the award. Animation is such a male dominated field, so they wanted it to give to a female director, even if she got ousted from the project halfway through and they had to reward someone else along with her.
A lot has been said about the problematic message of The little Mermaid, but honestly, I don't think that it's that bad that Ariel eventually gets her reward. Because the actual theme of the movie is that as a parents, you have to let go at one point and allow your children to make their own mistakes, a point when it's better to guide them even if you think that their dreams are foolish. If you see the world out of the ocean as adult world in which Ariel has to stand on her own feet, this is story of a teenager running away from home because her family doesn't allow her to pursue her dreams. She follows the bad advice of someone who tells her that her looks are more important than her character. She ends up in "hot water" so to speak, but her father bails her out, taking a hit for her. In the end, she gets what she wants not because she was so bratty, but because her father finally understood that her dream might not be so foolish after all, and with his support, she finds happiness. That's not a bad story. It would be a little bit better if the dialogue between Ariel, Triton and Ursula would be a little bit different before he is turned, though.
edited 15th Jul '13 1:37:24 PM by swanpride
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That's actually an interesting way of looking at the story, and one I hadn't thought of before. And it can still be argued that it wasn't so much about Ariel making a stupid decision so much as her putting her trust in the wrong person. When she made her deal with Ursula, she really had no way of knowing that Ursula had an ulterior motive behind helping her and had absolutely no intention of keeping up her end of the deal.
Plus, our official spoiler policy discourages unmarked spoilers in threads not specifically about whatever work is being discussed
. And this isn't the Brave thread.
edited 15th Jul '13 9:00:15 PM by 0dd1
Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.I don't dislike The Little Mermaid, after all it is from the Disney 90s, but Merida had skills and interests beyond collecting thing-a-mah-bobs. The Little Mermaid is about the parent coming to understand the child, but Brave is about mother/daughter bonding. Also the Scottish family dynamics are more complex and interesting then the Atlantican family ones.
The mother daughter bonding was the only good thing in this movie...but I never got what Merida actually wanted. I only got what she didn't want. Which was basically accepting responsibilities. Not that Ariel was big on those either, but at least she had a clear defined dream what she wanted instead.
And in general about Brave: I heard all the criticism about the DP movies, the complains about them being a musical, them being romances....but that's what a DP is about. That's why people like to watch them. So I really don't see the point of making a movie to please the DP haters and them calling it a DP movie despite the whole movie not being one in the first place. It's not even based on a fairy tale or legend. It's an original story.
Disney Princess...you know, this good-awful franchise Disney built around their fairy tale movies. A lot of the marketing around Brave was based on her being the Pixar princess which is somehow better than the usual Disney Princesses, which have been heavily criticized in the past. Especially since this awful "Cinderella eat my daughter" book hit the shelves which basically makes Disney responsible for all female stereotypes out there and acts as if proper parenting is the job of the media.
I don't know if I consider it devoid of redeeming features, but, well...I have a lot to say on the matter
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My biggest issue with Merida being "the anti-Princess" is that she was still, you know, a princess. Daughter of the reigning monarch. If they really wanted to make a heroine that broke the mold, why not go all the way and make her a peasant or the daughter of an accountant or something? It's not like the DPs need to be princesses in-universe anyway (though since the brand was launched, all the new characters added to the line have been just that. So they can say "princess" a bunch of times in the movie and reinforce the branding).
edited 16th Jul '13 6:11:53 AM by Karalora
My biggest issue with Merida hailed this way is that she is actually a huge step back. With Rapunzel Disney created a princess with a story which wasn't at all about her being a princess or the romance. Both elements were still in the movie, but the main focus was actually her breaking free from her abusive "mother". And through the whole movie, gender wasn't even an issue. Brave on the other hand is all about Merida being female and Merida being a princess and her character is very similar to the "I want mooooooore" princesses. Which were okay in the 90s. But the same way we were in the 90s past the classic princesses who dreamt for true love, we are now way past female characters who are mostly defined over their genders.
^^ Neither was Tiana, and Mulan never was.
In fact, I often feel like Pa TF isn't really a Princess movie at all - and that saying it is is kind of a disservice - mostly because it doesn't really play out like one, but eh. It feels more like Disney had put their own spin on one of those movies where the Straight Man goes on a road trip with a bunch of annoying other characters and learns to like them.
And I've always figured The Beast was a Baron or a Duke or something, not the son of a King, but I suppose that doesn't matter.
edited 16th Jul '13 8:45:47 AM by KnownUnknown
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I honestly don't get the griping about some Disney Princesses not being literal princesses. I mean, why is that even a problem?
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Yeah, Merida's not revolutionary at all. She was marketed that way, but if you pay attention to the movies, she's just the newest inheritor of the tradition that really started with Belle. Maybe Ariel if you're feeling charitable.
edited 16th Jul '13 8:46:31 AM by Karalora
I didn't mention Tiana and Mulan because the focus of their stories is still on them doing something nobody expects a female to do...but yes, they are "Modern" female protagonists too. Especially Mulan, since the whole point of the movie is that you should ignore gender stereotypes and just try to be yourself.
I guess Disney doesn't really understand its own movies...just look at Enchanted. It is supposed to be a spoof on the classic princesses, but it's actually more a spoof on what most people believe the classic princesses are like, and not on what they are really like.
edited 16th Jul '13 8:54:12 AM by swanpride
I don't even think Mulan was specifically trying to be about gender issues either - which is a weird thing to say, but hear me out. I feel like the movie was using gender stereotypes to push 'be yourself and don't let others tell you what you are' and 'don't let the world's barriers keep you from doing what's right' aesops.
It's why arguments like "she's doing everything to save a man, so the aesop is broken" don't actually hold water, and Mulan is a lot more complex than your typical You Go, Girl! character.
I think trying to make the character into your typical You Go, Girl! character and basing the plot off of defying gender roles is one of the things that made Mulan 2 so poor - it cut off a whole lot of depth from everything.
^ Was Enchanted really trying to claim that all Disney movies were the same as Cinderella? Just because the style in which something is made isn't used any more doesn't mean it's not relevant any more. The classic Disney movies are really iconic and still present in our culture - why shouldn't people continue to satirize them?
edited 16th Jul '13 9:05:29 AM by KnownUnknown
Oh, I agree there...when Mulan tries to act like a man she fails just as much as when she tries to act like a woman. It's only when she starts to act like herself instead of defining herself over the expectations society has of her when she succeeds (which is the reason why Mulan works so much better than other movies which tackle the theme). But the focus of the movie is still her being female.
