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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4551: Aug 14th 2021 at 4:58:51 PM

If all these sites have is an identity token that is unique to their relationship with you, there won't be any data for them to sell.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4552: Aug 14th 2021 at 5:15:41 PM

That's true.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4553: Aug 14th 2021 at 6:25:22 PM

Browser fingerprinting means there's plenty to sell even without that.

And that's something that can't be reliably addressed on the user end. Well, technically yes, but multiple browsers or VM's is... not really something most people will ever do.

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 14th 2021 at 2:34:37 PM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4554: Aug 15th 2021 at 4:59:16 AM

Actually, Tails will standardize your profile for you, making you indistinguishable.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4555: Aug 15th 2021 at 6:02:43 AM

That's the same sort of effort level, though? The one where even if there were privacy laws and a single point of authentication, most people could still have data sold.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4556: Aug 15th 2021 at 6:42:38 PM

Well, there are no perfect solutions, merely sets of incentives. Just like there is really nothing preventing anyone from conducting physical surveillance on my house, but its expensive to do, and they risk getting caught.

Tails is pretty much as straightforward as any app. 'Course, it's a type of linux, so there's that...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4557: Aug 15th 2021 at 6:51:06 PM

If all these sites have is an identity token that is unique to their relationship with you, there won't be any data for them to sell.

Sure there is, what pages on their site I viewed, what ads were playing when I viewed a page and how long I remained on that page.

Even if the advertiser can’t tie my identity token back to my meat-space identity that data can still be used to build a profile on me.

What we need isn’t a technological solution, it’s a legal one. If governments start banning companies from selling user data to advertising companies then you’ll have some confidence from the public that could enable better tracking for security reasons.

We’re making some progress, with sites now having to ask to do personalised ads for viewers.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 17th 2021 at 12:57:18 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4558: Aug 15th 2021 at 7:25:38 PM

[up][up] I'm just saying, "use an entire linux distribution for stuff" is about the same level of effort as multiple browsers and variable amounts of permitted scripting to limit both the ability to identify as much about the browser and screw up consistent fingerprinting.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4559: Aug 15th 2021 at 8:02:35 PM

[up][up] We need both technological and legal approaches. Legal guarantees of privacy are no help if our infrastructure is porous, and all the infrastructure in the world won't help without legal support.

Keeping in mind that everything I'm talking about is hypothetical in my ideal system, even assuming a business could glean information from your browser, none of that would uniquely identify you. The EU already protects IP addresses as personal data. What if the data routing to your computer were also part of the encrypted transactional token and generated as a one-time value?

It does no good for a site to know that I'm using a certain build of Chrome on Windows 10 and related metadata if they have no way to correlate my activity there with my activity anywhere else. I could, of course, voluntarily share personal data with them, but this is where we need legal protections on the sharing or marketing of that data.

These ideas need a lot of thinking out. I'm still doing it as I type this.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4560: Aug 16th 2021 at 8:23:42 PM

What Raineh Daze is referring to is that fact that internet servers can read information regarding various applications a particular user is running on their computer, including which browser you are using, and even such things as how big the window is on the tabs you have open. Those in combination with the mix of all the other settings and programs you use will create a unique "fingerprint" for each user. They still won't necessarily know who you are in real life, but they can potentially track your internet usage that way. A program like Tails standardizes all that stuff so that you look identical to anyone else using Tails. It's Linux, but a special build of Linux that normally won't let the user change any of the OS settings (you can change the browser settings, although it isn't recommended).

Edited by DeMarquis on Aug 16th 2021 at 11:24:59 AM

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4561: Aug 16th 2021 at 8:58:20 PM

Mmm, you also have to disable scripting heavily. Everything from your default fonts to your exact browser version to supported APIs to the version of said APIs and the hardware they're running on...

You can obfuscate it at the expense of functionality or sanity—for instance, the aforementioned "use specific linux distro"; or using multiple browsers (one for anything with logins, one with not even the scripting for that)—but this stuff all does have valid use by websites. It's just that advertisers can use it to fingerprint specific users and track them with 0 cookies.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#4562: Aug 16th 2021 at 9:11:57 PM

T-mobile confirms hackers got access to personal data of 100 million users, including social security numbers.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4563: Aug 17th 2021 at 4:42:05 AM

[up][up] Ah, right, all the browser scripting. Well, that would obviously have to be regulated as well.

[up] I saw that. 100 million, huh? Welp, not my problem. I'll just wait for Verizon to get hacked.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4564: Aug 17th 2021 at 6:47:41 AM

If you're curious, here's a tool which can show you all the information your browser exposes. And how much of it is dissimilar enough you can be broadly identified and tracked based on that.

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 17th 2021 at 2:48:07 PM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4565: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:06:49 AM

"Mmm, you also have to disable scripting heavily."

Actually, no, because Tails replaces your operating system for as long as you are using it. It comes with it's own browser, and everything is configured for privacy.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4566: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:08:44 AM

De Marquis, I appreciate your enthusiasm for this stuff, but 99.9999 percent of people are not going to install special browser clients or juggle Linux installs for the sake of privacy. Whatever we do for a large-scale solution must be transparent to the end-user and be platform-agnostic or it simply won't work.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4567: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:11:44 AM

Oh, I agree. I'm a strong advocate of legal reform. But that seems unlikely in the current political climate. In the meantime, there are technological solutions available to the individual user.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4568: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:24:21 AM

[up][up][up] If it's set up for privacy, it's probably having to disable a lot of the scripting-related checks—or otherwise outright falsify them, which could have repercussions on actual service provision. Or you're running it on very generic drivers even for the linux kernel, which has its own drawbacks.

Though the actual point about disabling scripting was addressed to Fighteer.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4569: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:27:17 AM

Well, you'll look like anyone else using Tails, until you do something different, but that only lasts for the current session. To start with a clean slate, just reboot. There is no perfect solution, but this gets you as close to anonymous, I think, as it is possible to get on the internet.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4570: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:39:06 AM

Let's be perfectly clear: there are three groups of people who will use something like this.

  1. Privacy nutjobs advocates who want to make a point but whom the various companies and governments out there don't give two shits about. Like, really dude. Nobody cares about your porn collection or your VeggieTales fanfics. Yes, Target is advertising condoms after you signed up for that dating site. Oh, no, the horror.
  2. A relatively small collection of people who have legitimate threats against their privacy and are the only ones who really need anonymity. These may include journalists, activists, etc.
  3. Criminals and other malicious actors who take advantage of privacy tools to escape detection and prosecution.

Group 2 aside, the "ethical principles" of group 1 are not worth the advantages granted to group 3.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 17th 2021 at 10:42:56 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4571: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:45:17 AM

That's literally arguing for a police state. "This thing helps criminals and normal people have no reason to actually care, so we should get rid of it." What the hell?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4572: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:47:48 AM

Hey, you're dropping straw all over the place. We do not currently live in a "police state" and our online privacy is essentially nil. Criminals are running rampant stealing data, holding businesses and governments ransom, and disrupting social media. The threat environment is growing at an exponential rate and we're worried about governments infringing on our rights. We really have screwed up priorities.

T-Mobile just disclosed a data breach affecting 100 million people. Using a VPN and hiding your browser signature wouldn't have done jack about that.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 17th 2021 at 10:49:06 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4573: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:52:49 AM

I'm sorry, "These ethical principles aren't worth the advantages to criminals" is an argument for a police state. That isn't saying we're in a police state, or saying it's the biggest priority (except apart from the bit where a privacy and surveillance thread is going to be about... privacy), it's saying that dismissing ethical considerations is a bad thing to do.

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 17th 2021 at 3:53:01 PM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4574: Aug 17th 2021 at 7:56:33 AM

A balance must be reached in those ethical considerations. On the one hand, people argue for a Wild West in which each individual and business is solely responsible for their privacy/safety and criminals/malicious state actors use the same tools but have much better funding and organization.

On the other hand, people argue for regulations and centralized tools that are designed to ensure that each person and business has the maximum privacy and ease of access to services while allowing the tracking, banning, and prosecution of those malicious actors.

The phrase "police state" is a strawman - specifically, a form of debate killer known as poisoning the well.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 17th 2021 at 11:03:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#4575: Aug 17th 2021 at 8:26:08 AM

That would be presenting negative information about some target to discredit any arguments that arise from said source. Which is also not a strawman argument, because that's specifically attacking an argument that hasn't been made rather than the argument presented... which also isn't the case, since that would be more along the lines of arguing about warrantless mass surveillance. I mean if we really want to find a fallacy, I guess maybe affirming the consequent? But since this wasn't saying that it is a police state but rather that out of hand dismissal of ethical considerations for security is very much the sort of argument that is used for erosion of civil liberties and usage of police...

Or we could just agree that saying some ethical point doesn't matter and carrying on without explanation is not great for a thread where ethical considerations are important to its premise rather than going through a list of informal fallacies. tongue


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