Ensemble Dark Horse Cleanup

I have no idea why my brain decided to pull an Epic Fail. Yup, meant Ensemble Dark Horse, of course. Edited my message.

Edited by NonoRobot on May 6th 2020 at 10:59:08 AM

That seems fair enough to me. I was hazy on Lopez because of his inconsistent presence and his somewhat Only Sane Man role when he is present. I'll cut Caboose.

Anyway, Robot, your analysis of the example seems valid to me.

Ensemble Dark Horse isn't a trope you avert. An Aversion means there's no point in listing it unless it's generally accepted to be an expected trope, but without it being deliberately subverted (that is, played up to be used, but not used in the end). This does not exist for an Audience Reaction.

As for the examples on YMMV.Tales Of Vesperia, I don't think they count based on what's written. There's too little context to understand their popularity relative to their notability in the work.

The exception is Yeager, who seems like a proper example. The context is also enough, by having little screen time and voted most popular villain. Those forums might not be representative of the entire fandom, but I think it's enough of an indication and works for illustrative purposes as long as no contrary information is brought up.

Alright, thank you everyone for your input! I have removed everyone except for Yeager.

What do you think of this entry on the Trials of Mana YMMV? While the entry predates the remake, it has recently been edited:

• Ensemble Dark Horse: When searching for any fan art of characters from this game, expect to find more art of Riesz than everyone else combined. An explanation for her popularity could be the context of the game's release in Japan: in that day and age, there weren't a lot of 'physical' female fighters, and even fewer Badass Princesses. Riesz really broke a lot of molds as a Lady of War, since she's both the princess of Laurent and the captain of an Amazon Brigade. Her popularity was recognized during the E3 2019 Treehouse Live presentation for the 3D remake. Riesz is also one of the few characters in the entire Mana series to make an appearance outside the series, being a Guest Fighter in Million Arthur: Arcana Blood.

Riesz is one of the 6 playable characters, so on one hand she should be disqualified. But it does make a case that Riesz achieved enough popularity to appear outside of this one game when none of the others have and become popular in the West when this was a Japan-only game for over two decades.

So, keep or cut?

On the Ensemble Darkhorse page for Mortal Kombat, the entries of both Baraka and Geras have been removed on the basis that they are main characters and thus disqualified from the trope. However, I would disagree with that reasoning, as they could hardly be considered a main character (for starters, they don't even have their own individual chapter in the story mode of Mortal Kombat 11). Is it acceptable if I add these entries back?

Would anyone familiar with the Steven Universe and 2017 DuckTales fandoms check the accuracy of this example?

EnsembleDarkhorse.Steven Universe:

• "Swan Dive", an official^note As in, actually drawn by Rebecca Sugar and Dana Terrace crossover fusion of Pearl and Scrooge McDuck, unsurprisingly became very popular in the fandom.

It's a ZCE as written and I plan on expanding it, I just wanna make sure Swanny is as popular as the entry claims they are.

I already deleted one example on YMMV.Paper Mario Sticker Star for not being a character, but I’m wondering if the other entry is alright.

• Ensemble Dark Horse: The Mariachi Shy Guys and Gooper Blooper for the music theming behind them and being plain hilarious, and Mizzter Blizzard for being a Tragic Monster and having more characterization than anyone else in the game.

The last paragraph seems like a potshot towards the game...

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 16th 2020 at 2:53:45 PM

Those need to be split into separate examples at any rate. Perhaps the last one could be reworded to "for having a surprisingly deep and tragic motivation compared to the rest of the bosses, who just fight Mario because he threatens their power."?

Speaking of Paper Mario, I think the Super Paper Mario page needs some cleanup on the Ensemble Dark Horse section.

"Mr. L, despite being just a brainwashed Luigi, is one of if not the most popular characters in the game mostly for his really cool Evil Costume Switch as well as the fun Brobot boss fights. He also has an Awesome Ego.

Basically, all of Team Bleck get this to various degrees. All of his minions (with the exception of Dimentio, who is this for completely different reasons) are praised for their Undying Loyalty to the count until the very end, O'Chunks is particularly memorable for his amusing Proud Warrior Race Guy Dumb Muscle mentality as well as his method of flight before the Wario Waft was even a thing, Mimi is liked for her Cute Monster Girl design, shape-shifting abilities, and legitimately terrifying true form, Nastasia is liked for her secretary personality, hypnotic abilities (which in turn gave birth to Mr. L above), and heartwarming backstory, and Count Bleck himself is widely praised for his tragic background, Affably Evil nature, and his genuinely touching Character Development in a Mario game. These characters are sorely missed by many, especially with Sticker Star and Color Splash being the apparent new standard."

I can see the more minor minions like O'Chunks and Nastasia having a spot here since their role in the plot is relatively minor, and Mr. L definitely qualifies since he only appears for two chapters, but Dimentio is the twist villain and Final Boss and Count Bleck is the Big Bad. Are they too major to be on the page?

Dimentio and Count Bleck are indeed too major; remove them.

Does this entry from Percy Jackson and the Olympians count?:

• Ensemble Dark Horse: While it's quite the diversion from the book's iteration of the character, the film's portrayal of Grover and his humor were regarded as being one of its few redeeming factors for many viewers.

For one, Grover is a main character. Second, his portrayal isn't as universally beloved as the entry suggests, since there's an Unfortunate Implications entry about him on the same page.

Cut.

I'm questioning a Darkhorse entry on The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

• Serana from the Dawnguard expansion, due to the depth and dimensions given to her character, as well as the subtle Ship Tease between her and the Dragonborn. Indeed, the Dragonborn takes the role of Supporting Protagonist in Dawnguard, which is ultimately her tale.

Not only is she the central character of the Dawnguard expansion but I've seen people who actually disliked her specifically because of how much of a prominent character she is there.

Edited by Loekman3 on Jul 5th 2020 at 11:09:57 PM

×8: I'm a Steven Universe fan and I follow several Ducktales fans. I have never heard of Swan Dive until now, and googling them with either fandom name only brings up maybe four related pieces of fanart at most. In a show like SU that is teeming with actual Ensemble Darkhorses, they don't seem to clear the bar.

Got it. They've been axed.

In December of last year, I deleted Brooke from One Tree Hill as being an ensemble darkhorse due to being a main character (in retrospect, she would qualify as a Breakout Character). Yet three months later, she was re-added back due to someone's belief that since she wasn't in the first episode, she qualifies.

Uh...

Was the person who put her back the same person who added her in the first place?

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Jul 9th 2020 at 3:02:21 PM

Possibly. They have been an active editor on the page since its creation.

Bringing up these examples from Kingdom Come:

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • NORMAN MCCAY. It is a damn crime that he's never appeared in the main continuity.
  • Boston Brand's (Deadman) four page cameo. He's even wittier in the novelization.
  • Magog ended up becoming this for the writers; they initially made him a cliched representation of everything they hated about '90s Anti-Hero and the culture he represented, but he gained unexpected depth through the writing of the series until he ended up being one of their favorite characters from it. Sadly, when he was brought into the main universe, he went in the other direction.
  • Nightstar due to being a walking representation of the marriage between fan-favorite coupling Nightwing and Starfire, and being very easy on the eyes besides.
  • Batman and Talia's son, here called Ibn al Xu'ffasch, supposedly Arabic for "Son of the Bat". Originally a Mythology Gag to the non-canon story Son of the Demon where the son is a baby, the concept was intriguing enough to be revisited in other Elseworld stories and ultimately became canon with Damian Wayne. This version is also popular for being Nightstar's boyfriend, to Dick's consternation and Bruce's amusement (more explicit in the less well-received sequel miniseries The Kingdom) because he's kind of her uncle.
  • Kid Flash (Iris West, Wally's daughter) is also quite popular and has made frequent appearances in the regular DC Universe long before this Superman did. All three of the above were featured in The Kingdom with their own focus issues.
  • Red Hood is quite popular too. She's essentially the grown-up version of (fan favorite in her own right) Lian Harper, her persona being a blend of her dad's Red Arrow self and Little Red Riding Hood.

Norman McCay and Magog are too major to qualify.

The Deadman example mentions the character's status as a minor character, but doesn't mention any popularity with fans.

The Nightstar, Ibn al Xu'ffasch, Kid Flash and Red Hood examples reference their popularity with fans, but doesn't mention how minor or major they are in the story.

The following is on the Warhammer YMMV page

• Ensemble Dark Horse: Many were found, given the game's long existence. To name a few; the Night Goblin warlord Skarsnik, the Chaos champion Wulfrik the Wanderer, the archmage Balthazar Gelt and the Tomb Queen Khalida. They are special characters who are not the main leaders of their factions, yet feature in their own stories outside the armybooks.

Am I right in thinking that the "feature in their own stories outside the armybooks" part would disqualify them for the trope, especially as in a number of cases I suspect that those stories are why they are a popular in the first place.

Edited by SebastianGray on Jul 13th 2020 at 8:20:27 PM

YMMV.Danny Phantom

• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Clockwork. For a character only appearing in two episodes, he has amassed quite a following.
  • Same for Ghost Writer, especially with the fangirls. One episode and there are SWARMS of fanart of him everywhere.
  • Don't even get started on Dark Danny. He only appeared once, but what an impression.
  • And for the fanboys, there is Desiree, a Literal Genie with a sympathetic backstory, and one of the best bodies in 2-D animation, and Ember McLain who is a ghostly rocker girl voiced by Tara Strong, sings a very catchy song and has a rather dark and very sympathetic backstory.
  • Not to mention Spectra, Skulker, and THE BOX GHOST!
  • Freakshow, the only human character who could truly be considered an antagonist. He only appeared as the Big Bad of one episode, and the third TV movie, but is one of the more popular villains, with the general consensus being that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character.

All of these played major parts of the episodes they were in. Would all of these except for Clockwork fit better on Evil Is Cool and Evil Is Sexy?

I removed these characters from YMMV.Re Zero and YMMV.Mighty No 9.

• Ensemble Dark Horse: Many new viewers watch this show because of the hype surrounding Rem and the discussion of this show as being so dark and gruesome. It even deceives some people who consider the twins the only reason for the popularity of this show.
  • Felix gained a lot of attention after a number of Ho Yay moments with Subaru in the last couple of episodes, with some joking that Subaru should end up him instead of Emilia or even Rem.
  • Rem. Despite not being one of the main characters, Rem has a more complex personality than the main female lead, Emilia. It has gotten to the point where many image websites such as Pixiv have more fanart dedicated to Rem than to Emilia. Eventually she became so popular, that on MAL Rem has more fans than all the other Re:Zero characters combined and with Levi are the only side characters in the Top 50 characters on the site, turning into Just Here for Godzilla for many new viewers. When Crunchyroll did a poll, Rem got half the votes. That said, she has her own problems. See her entry in the Base-Breaking Character above and the Hype Aversion below.
  • Reinhard receives a lot of attention because of his Voice Actor Yuichi Nakamura, his Memetic Badass of nature and the interest of the audience to his development of relations with Felt.
  • Echidna quickly becomes this, despite the fact that she does not appear in the anime adaptation. In particular, many fans like her playful personality and relationship with Subaru. In the end, it seems that she is the character that the fans most want to see as a new character in the continuation of the anime.
• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Apart from the nine Call design voting choices, the Call with the pink hair received much attention from fans alongside the Roll-looking Call, which would later be designated as Design "F" in the voting contest and become Call's official design, who were featured in a concept art in the early days of the Kickstarter campaign and before the voting contest officially started. Part of this attention stems from the fact that she looks very similar to Aero, a character that was supposed to make her debut in Mega Man Legends 3.
  • Of the Mighty Numbers, there's Mighty No. 7 (Brandish), due to his similarities to Proto Man and Zero, Mighty No. 8 (Countershade), due to his gunslinger motif and cool voice, and Mighty No. 3 (Dynatron), for being a Creepy Cute Robot Girl.
  • While part of it is due to being much like Zero, RAY is well-liked for being a surprisingly interesting and sympathetic character. Helped by her campaign's mechanics circumventing some of the game's most criticized points (eg. she can dash into enemies and absorb them immediately; Beck has to damage them first), while still offering a challenge. She was one of the most highly requested characters for Mighty Gunvolt Burst, and one of the final DLC characters offered for the game.

Am I allowed to remove the Brooke Davis example, citing this thread or do I need more evidence/discussion to do so or have someone else do it since it would look like edit warring?