Young Avengers

I don't want her to land somewhere else nor do I want her to show up in another series. I want her to continue in this series because I want this series to not end.

Is there no one else interested in picking up YA? Gillen already set up how the team got together again. And it was even a nice mythology nod at the top of that. All we need is some writer to write some cool stories with the characters. Why is so difficult for that book to keep going?

Well, it's possible YA will be relaunched. The decision seems to have been made to do YA as seasons. It's worth noting that this run hasn't had great sales, unfortunately, so if a new creative team is going to be brought in, it would be just as well to relaunch at #1. Which I think makes more sense than continuing the existing numbering anyway.

As long as the team and characters continue, I don't complain. What I don't want is yet another small period with the characters in the limbo, witch seems par of course with the Young Avengers. I just want to continue seeing them doing stuff since I really like them (including the new additions of America and David).

edited 20th Dec '13 7:27:43 PM by Heatth

I'm guessing we'll get at least a 6-month limbo, probably more like a year, maybe even longer.

As I've said in the main Marvel thread, I think Kathryn Immonen would be a great choice for the next season. She's not doing anything at Marvel right now, and she's a great writer. Her Journey Into Mystery was one of the best books of the year.

Just keep Rick Remender away from it. Because seriously, no. I'd also prefer they not put Hopeless on it, because I'm not going to buy anything he writes, and I'd like to show my support for any new YA book.

Other than Hopeless and Gillen, I can't think of a writer there good with teens. It will probably be Hopeless if the series gets relaunched, as Cable and X-Force is ending (unless he gets another X-Book). I wonder if Kelly Sue Deconnick can take on a third Marvel book...

It would be tragically funny if Arena got Hopeless typecast as "the guy who writes all our books starring young adults".

As long as he learns not to kill people in asinine ways in the first few issues...

The little I read of Arena did have great characterization. But unfortunately that doesn't mean the two character deaths in the first two issues weren't terrible. But, yeah, just forbid him from killing people and he on YA could be great.

edited 21st Dec '13 9:29:11 AM by Heatth

To be fair to him, that wasn't the story he wanted to write. He wasn't just killing characters for the lulz, and his original vision for the series was something completely different. When you're told to write the Hunger Games...well...you kind of just have to do the best you can with what you're handed.

I kind of feel like blaming Hopeless for the fact that kids died in his story is like blaming Joss Whedon for killing Coulson. How they died, how they were characterized, etc. can be chalked up to Hopeless, but from the moment editorial decided they wanted a Hunger Games story...well...kids were going to die no matter who writes it.

edited 21st Dec '13 5:40:53 PM by TobiasDrake

Oh, I am not even blaming him for the Hunger Games idea. I have my issues with it but it isn't even the worst idea ever (and attributing it to Arcade is in character, so the execution isn't that terrible in that regard). But, as you said, how the characters died is still on him. And Mettle's death was bullshit. For that matter, that second death (the flying girl) was stupid too.

As I said, I am perfectly okay with him writing the characters. I just don't trust him to be able to kill them. Prevent him from killing people and his writing is great.

edited 21st Dec '13 5:52:52 PM by Heatth

I agree with red feather girl, disagree with Mettle. His death was incredibly noble. It takes a lot of courage to step up and say, "If you're going to put someone on the chopping block, take me." Mettle had more dignity in his death than any other character the series killed off, because he took his bullet very explicitly so that no one else would have to. It reminded me of their Fear Itself tie-in, when Mettle went with Hazmat to help hold off the Worthy long enough for Finesse to trip the switch that would Critical Existence Failure everyone still within; instead of escaping, he went to die with her just so that she wouldn't have to die alone. Here, he died a hero, and if he has to die in a shitty bloodbath of characters, I can think of no more appropriate way for him to go out.

By contrast, red feather girl died in a fit of panic and not paying attention. Her death was stupid and pointless.

edited 21st Dec '13 6:25:04 PM by TobiasDrake

His death was incredible noble. But it wasn't about him. His death happened entirely to roll back Hazmat character so she could be angry and bitter again. Furthermore, it was the very first issue of the book. Nothing happened yet and the character just suddenly died. Despite being a major character with on going plot just a few months prior. His death just suddenly halted the character, without adding much in return. And considering how new of a character he was, and how unceremoniously he died as soon as his book ended, it send yet another message that new characters are expendable and will just fall dead at the drop of the hat. It add to the collective mentality of the industry that only the old characters matter. Anyway, just because there are worse deaths out there it doesn't mean this death is fine.

(Also, personally I don't think any writer should ever be allowed to kill established characters in their opening issue, without having ever writing anything with them. It is not their character and they shouldn't be able to make that choice so lightly. They might not care for the character, but someone else does. As I mentioned before in this forum, I really beliave a writer should only kill those they care for and understand^note though I adimit Hopeless had the "understanding" part right)

The plumed girl killing was a joke, though, no disagreement. What was Hopeless even thinking? Even ignoring the death itself was stupid, the total lack of reaction of everyone else is just painful. Even the narrative didn't seem to care she died. It is as if Hopeless suddenly realized he have one character too many and needed to fix this asap.

I get what he was thinking. He was thinking someone has to have a complete emotional breakdown and snap under the pressure. Take a large number of random people and throw them in a tense situation, and at least one person will break. It would be completely unbelievable for everyone to keep their cool and be able to hold it together in this scenario, but it would also be a total slap in the face for one of the Runaways, or the Academy kids, or any of the other returning, established characters to be the one that flips their shit and gets stupidly killed in a blind panic.

That said, dredging a long-shelved character out of limbo to be that character wasn't cool. I can respect the reasoning behind it, but it should have been one of the all-new Braddock Academy kids. It's also best that it happened quick and suddenly, because if the breakdown character sticks around, that character is quickly going to devolve into the Gilligan of the scenario, getting everyone killed through their own inability to cope, and nobody likes that. Gilligan got himself eaten in right at the start so we don't have to scream at the cast for not dumping his ass in the woods around the third time someone dies trying to protect Gilligan's stupid ass.

But again: Gilligan should have been one of the new guys.

edited 21st Dec '13 6:51:21 PM by TobiasDrake

Also, people should've reacted. The fact that the only person who gave a single, solitary fuck about Red Raven's death was the villain who abducted her in the first place was bullshit. It was insulting to the character. The reason she died actually seemed to be to show that the heroes couldn't just fly away, but that's stupid, because that can be done without killing someone. She could've just been injured. They could've had a Braddock Academy student freak and try to fly away, and then get injured when they slam into the wall, and the other Braddock kids scornfully drag them off. Or keep Red Raven as the one who does it, and then the Academy kids try to help her while she recovers.

That too.

All things considered, her death had a narrative function, but was pretty callous and only highlights the fact that the only reason she came out of Character Limbo in the first place was to be a checkmark on a list of characters who died in order to meet an arbitrary required body count.

EDIT: Checking off a death without killing anyone "important" is probably also the reason why Juston was there. I loved the Sentinel kid to death, but looking at the Academy cast, we had four major cast members and one recurring side character. Guess who's not coming back!

edited 21st Dec '13 7:05:38 PM by TobiasDrake

Oh, no, that in itself is fine. In fact, that could have been great if Hopeless had focused on her panic and showed how desperated she was and how tragic was her death. Instead she just dropped and the story immediately moved on somewhere else. You can do a great scene with someone being overcome by panic and being killed stupidly. But that wasn't what he done. He just killed her and moved on in a blink, without paying much attention to the fact. That is what make her death a joke.

He just had a spotlight story not long before too, which makes his death even sadder. But, personally, I can't comment on his death much, as I haven't reach that part of the story yet.

What makes Red Raven's utterly pointless death slightly more frustrating is that Hopeless has said he actually had a ton of ideas for her. And then he wound up tossing every single one of them in favour of turning her into a bird smacking into a window, to show that the kids couldn't escape, which could've easily been done another way without killing anyone.

He could have done so while killing someone. He just needed to do it better. If the second issue was focused on her, instead on Death Locket, it would have been much greater^note though I suppose still bitter for the fans of the character.

I think this is honestly the most reaction Red Raven has had ever. So maybe Hopeless did accomplish to goal making you care.

Do you know what Red Raven and Pink Floyd have in common?

Pink is a lighter shade of red?

Except it's not so much Red Raven we're talking about. We're talking about the shitty handling of the death. The death would be shitty no matter who it was.

Both of their biggest hits were the wall. ^note I know she hit the ceiling but whatever =P

edited 21st Dec '13 8:46:57 PM by MegaJ

Not really. I didn't care for her when she died nor do I care for her now. What I "care" is for bad writing. You can say Hopeless menages to make me "care" for his book, but I honestly don't give a fuck to the bird girl. I didn't even menage to remember her name and barely can remember her basic design^note she was a red bird girl, right?.

Meanwhile, I actually do care for Death Locket, as she was actually well written on that issue. I felt more for her losses, some random background mother and brother, than I felt for the bird girl.

As I said before, Hopeless can write characters. He apparently only can't write good deaths. Which is why, to back to the topic, I would support he taking over Young Avengers, as long as he doesn't start killing them(they had their own pointless death already).

PS:To bring back to the topic while keeping the "death" subject, what do you guys think about Cassie's death?

edited 21st Dec '13 8:46:49 PM by Heatth

To wrap up the discussion on Mettle/Red Raven, I did think Mettle's death was effective and emotional. Mettle died loving Hazmat. He was so in love with this girl that when it came down to being a hero or killing the other kids to save her, he chose her. That to me wasn't regulating him to a Satellite Character role, but bringing out that this was not some sort of puppy love but true love that he had for her. The gruesome death was so unexpected after that poignant moment. I literally had my jaw open. And the look on Hazmat's face...I was just as surprised, saddened and dumbfounded as she was. It effectively shocked me, made me care for both Mettle and Hazmat, set up Arcade as the villain and left me wanting more.

As for Red Raven, I didn't know about her before, wasn't moved by her death, and even if Hopeless got that issue/panel space to make us care about her and empathize with her fear, I don't think I would've cared really. I don't think it makes me heartless. Her death was there to show that the ceiling existed. To me, that's a good way of showing there's no escape, to others it's a shitty way to die. Enh, YMMV.

Not to mention I kind of roll my eyes at the whole "deaths should mean something in stories." None of us has the option (or likelihood) of dying a dignified death, I'm not sure why that reality can't be reflected in a comic book.

So. YA. Where the fuck is Patriot? And Cassie's death was sad, but she did go out against Doom, scoring a few hits so I'm fine.

I think we have gone far too outside the topic to continue discussing Arena but I will reply to this:

"Comic Books" can and should reflect reality. However, this doesn't mean all comic books are well suited to this. It is hard to use this concept in such a diverse from reality genre such as super heroes but, more importantly, this kind of thing shouldn't be forced upon established characters. I wouldn't care if Arena killed 90% of its cast, if said cast was appropriate for the setting. Hell, I love Batle Royale, which is much bloodier than Arena. However the cast of Avengers Academy isn fit for that. That was never how their book worked. The problem is using ''them' (and others) in a setting that they were never meant for.

Bottom line is. Yes, death should be dramatic in a dramatic setting. And Avengers Academy and its characters were a dramatic setting, not a realistic one. Sudden and pointless deaths suits other people, not them. Had Avengers Arena have an all original cast. Or using characters who actually fit the genre it was aiming for^note X-23 could actually work here, considering her origins in the comics it would be fine.

edited 21st Dec '13 8:55:16 PM by Heatth

To counter that, were the characters of Battle Royale suited for Battle Royale? There were only a couple of kids that actively played (one being a Blood Knight, the other being Zen Survivor or sorts). The others clamored around until they were killed, actively tried to escape, or refused to even play. Are you saying the Marvel kids didn't fit because they're superheroes?

edited 21st Dec '13 8:58:31 PM by MegaJ