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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#4001: Jan 29th 2024 at 7:20:54 AM

[up] Oh yeah, I know I sometimes overeach and downplay just how hard these people work, in fact one of my favourite things about the olympics is how every country that hosts the olympics tends to win more medals the year they're hosting. Because they put more effort into scouting and training. Cuz it just goes to show how many talented people there are who just need the opportunity and the right support to shine.

I just feel really weird when I hear about how, I dunno, the best cyclist in the world literally doesn't produce lactic acid as quickly as other people do, and it makes me think how are you supposed to fight that.

Edited by GNinja on Jan 29th 2024 at 3:22:54 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4002: Jan 29th 2024 at 7:28:49 AM

Especially because people literally celebrate that and then turn around and hurl bile at trans women for a thing that's literally not happening. There is no wave of trans women dominating every sporting event they enter, which is why most of the complaints are like "I got in 9th place out of 10 and a trans woman got in 5th place, THIS IS UNFAIR!" Ignoring that, at best if a cis woman got into that competition slot, the best outcome the complainer could have gotten was 8th place.

It's especially telling that the complainers tend to not say anything at the time and then suddenly start yelling about it six-nine months later, once the Daily Wire's found them. It's almost like they're being paid to do it. The only example I can find that was immediate was that lady who got in second last place in a skateboarding competition, she got mad at the trans woman who also entered, and totally ignored that it was an all gender and age competition that a 9 year old cis girl won.

Hell, when the Daily Wire wanted to do a "documentary" about trans women dominating sports unfairly, they couldn't actually find any examples or anyone willing to play along. So they pivoted and turned it into an absolutely terrible """"comedy""" that got totally overshadowed and ignored because it released on the same day as Godzilla Minus One in North America.

The absolute most telling thing though is that this kind of bile is hurled at black women in sports all the time, and it used to be (and still is in some circles) thrown at lesbians. Not to mention that most of the people wailing about trans women in sports appear to be totally ignorant about women's sports. Like, if you care this much, at least put in the effort to sound like you actually care. Instead, they barely know anything and it makes it obvious it's just bigotry. If it was someone who was misguided but well meaning, you'd think they'd be talking about the massive pay disparities or the ridiculous uniforms or something.

Edited by Zendervai on Jan 29th 2024 at 10:37:49 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4003: Jan 29th 2024 at 1:31:02 PM

Oh my, I looked it up, geez, looks like an absolute trainwreck.

Even has a page here

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/LadyBallers

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#4004: Jan 29th 2024 at 1:38:07 PM

It has a page on This Very Wiki as well. Which we keep a close eye on.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4005: Jan 29th 2024 at 1:40:27 PM

[up] I just linked that page tongue

But yeah, it looks clean. Seems to mostly document it's poor quality.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#4006: Jan 29th 2024 at 2:12:51 PM

One of the more headache inducing ones, but, it's clean for now.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#4007: Feb 1st 2024 at 9:59:33 AM

Russia has its first convictions under a new anti-LGBTQ+ law. Displaying a rainbow image in a context that associates it with LGBTQ+ rights will now get you arrested.

CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#4008: Feb 1st 2024 at 10:32:09 AM

[up]Damn.

"Oh, did I win?"
TheDarkMantis Shadow Bug from Ocean of Storms Since: Nov, 2017 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
Shadow Bug
#4009: Feb 1st 2024 at 12:44:20 PM

What are the odds that people there will extend this to literally any depictions of a rainbow? Even just plain photographs of rainbows in nature?

"That we continue to persist at all is a testament to our faith in one another."
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#4010: Feb 1st 2024 at 1:34:42 PM

[up] There is not much of rule of law in Russia at the moment. In such a country, laws exist as something you suppress dissent with, rather than enforce what is actually written in them. They are often vague specifically for that purpose. So of course someone may decide to interpret it broadly in order to imprison someone. Like with foreign agents law [1] it is all about having something to charge dissenters with.

Edited by Risa123 on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:34:57 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4011: Feb 1st 2024 at 1:38:38 PM

Yeah, Russia is a complete Banana Republic at this point. They don't even bother with keeping up a facade anymore.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#4012: Feb 1st 2024 at 1:42:10 PM

My only reaction to this is 'wait, you mean Russia wasn't already doing that before?'

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#4013: Feb 1st 2024 at 1:47:43 PM

[up] I'm not sure what exactly you mean by before, but I would assume that whatever you are talking about was done by other laws like the already mentioned foreign agents' law.

Edited by Risa123 on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:48:20 AM

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#4014: Feb 1st 2024 at 1:59:59 PM

I was referring to arresting people for putting up pride rainbows, just to clarify.

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#4015: Feb 1st 2024 at 2:22:36 PM

It's an extension of previous laws against "propaganda of non-traditional sexual relationships", but that's legally narrower than using a rainbow as a queer symbol.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4016: Feb 6th 2024 at 5:28:09 AM

Okay so one thing that's happening now is that Netflix has a new documentary about Alexander the Great and eight minutes in, he's making out with Hephaestion. And the usual suspects are showing up to complain about Netflix "making Alexander the Great gay".

Here's the thing: it is true that there aren't any contemporary accounts that are just straight up like "yes, Alexander and Hephaestion banged". But the accounts at the time list them doing things that don't make any sense if they were just platonic bros.

Like, say, making sacrifices at a temple to Achilles and Patroclus (Alexander sacrificed to Achilles and Hephaestion sacrificed to Patroclus). That's extremely odd if you assume they're platonic.

What a lot of this boils down to is that we've got a ton of circumstantial evidence of them being lovers, and very little counter-evidence. Like, the only thing anyone can find is Alexander refusing sex slaves...but they were gifts from someone Alexander very clearly did not like.

It's just like, really weird that there's suddenly people coming out of the woodworks being like "but Alexander wasn't bi!" after like 2000 years of people being like "oh, he was totally bi".

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 6th 2024 at 8:38:35 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4017: Feb 6th 2024 at 6:56:54 AM

[up]

It's because the people glorifying people like Alexander also tend to be really socially regressive, so they can't abide the notion of that person they idolise being "one of those people".

Case in point: Prussiaboos losing their bloody minds whenever Frederick the Great's sexuality is brought up and people coming up with the weirdest takes ("Frederick wasn't gay, he just had the soul of a woman", "he wasn't gay, he just had screwed up genitals" etc) to explain it away has actually been a thing for a long time.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 6th 2024 at 3:59:25 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4018: Feb 6th 2024 at 7:12:34 AM

There's also the time that Troy movie pulled a DIC Sailor Moon and made Achilles and Patroclus cousins but completely failed to remove the gay subtext. So it ended up taking two (probable) lovers and making them into incestuous lovers.

Or how 300 was like "the Spartans were manly men and were totally straight and the Persians are the queer degenerates" when they were infamously gay in a really fucked up kind of way and the Persians were way more straight-laced by our standards, the Persians were basically just a lot less racist.

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#4019: Feb 6th 2024 at 7:19:32 AM

It's always hilarious to hear people protest "The ancient Greeks were definitely not gay!!!"

Edited by Resileafs on Feb 6th 2024 at 10:19:42 AM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4020: Feb 6th 2024 at 7:30:41 AM

Or claiming that Sappho had to be straight.

Like, yes, it's completely true that the Greek concept of sexuality was wildly different from ours and pushed for a lot of really unhealthy relationships.

But the idea that they were all totally straight doesn't make sense, especially with the way the Athenians treated women. There was a whole cultural movement that sex was good but sex with women was bad and only procreative sex was okay but even that wasn't great. Like, it's difficult to put that together with the idea of being straight.

The only real counterevidence to the gay behaviour is that the ancient Greeks didn't really write down when a gay relationship was happening...mostly because inheritance and children weren't a factor. Why bother keeping track?

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 6th 2024 at 10:41:33 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4021: Feb 6th 2024 at 7:55:02 AM

Though it's also worth remembering that there were often a lot of hang-ups about women and masculinity wrapped up in some of those dynamics back then.

When you believe women are terrible and inferior and pride yourself in your masculinity, nothing's manlier than sleeping with another man.

It's also worth noting that people often conflate genuine same-sex relationships with the widespread social practice of pederasty that existed in Ancient Greece (also another thing 300 got very wrong, as the Spartans were also doing that).

Ancient Rome had similar hang-ups, especially with how sexual relationships between men were not seen as an equal affair - long story short, if you weren't the top in the relationship you were treated as the subject of mockery because you "let other men use you like they would a woman" (there was actually a popular line of slander aimed at Caesar alleging that he let a foreign king regularly top him).

Long story short, not only didn't Ancient Greece and Rome not really have the same concepts of sexuality as we do have today, a lot of it was wrapped up in some really screwed up stuff.

[up]

One weird thing about how people nowadays treat Sappho that's there also a lot of bi erasure going on in regards to her, i.e. people who view her as a gay icon getting really angry when it's pointed outt hat Sappho was vocal about lusting after both men and women (and one of her surviving works basically detailing how thirsty she was a for a guy).

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Feb 6th 2024 at 4:59:09 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4022: Feb 6th 2024 at 8:15:53 AM

A lot of the "they're totally completely straight you guys" stuff though is basically just Victoriana, but interestingly, some of this stuff, even the Victorians weren't this uptight about it. The Victorians didn't really find the existence of homosexuality in the past inherently threatening on this level.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#4023: Feb 6th 2024 at 8:42:54 AM

[up]

There's also the time that Troy movie pulled a DIC Sailor Moon and made Achilles and Patroclus cousins but completely failed to remove the gay subtext. So it ended up taking two (probable) lovers and making them into incestuous lovers.

Really? They didn't come off as cousins to me when I saw that. I just took Achilles as being incredibly protective of Patroclus because unlike the former, the latter hadn't seen combat and that Achilles would cower or mess up to the point he would get killed (while he didn't cower, Patroclus did get killed because Achilles didn't want to continue fighting the war).

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#4024: Feb 6th 2024 at 8:54:27 AM

Yeah, it's really briefly mentioned at the start. Didn't work though.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#4025: Feb 6th 2024 at 9:15:28 AM

[up] Sorry, meant "lovers". Still, Achilles' protectiveness for Patroclus didn't seem romantic to me.

Back on topic: most countries I've read about with their LGBTQ rights have it in for stuff like same-sex marriage and same-sex adoption. Is there a common factor as to why there's opposition to that? I mean, it may differ from country to country but I can imagine there must be something in common when it comes to Countries A, B, and C not wanting to submit to change over the concept of marriage and who gets to adopt a child.


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