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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#3801: Jun 1st 2023 at 7:37:15 AM

The best way I've seen it described is that there's like two levels of kink that people get upset at. One is the "this is actually not okay" level, which is people trying to rope random bystanders into something active. This is not actually common because it's very difficult to pull off and it's incredibly likely to backfire.

The other level is "but how do I explain this to my kids!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" bullshit. It's people trying to make it sound like explaining a leather or latex outfit or whatever requires you to to into extreme depth on what exactly happens behind closed doors when the kid probably sees stuff on the same level in movies and on TV anyway. At worst, the parent can just say "it's a costume for adults because they're having fun" and the kid will probably accept that.

The "how do I explain this to my kids" approach is 99% of the time completely disingenuous because it's people pretending that you have to explain all things to extreme levels of detail all the time when in reality, telling a kid that gay people exist usually just results in an "oh okay" and not much else.

Not Three Laws compliant.
NesClassic Inheritor of the Wing from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Inheritor of the Wing
#3802: Jun 1st 2023 at 7:41:13 AM

Yeah, that was where my hangup was- it was conflating the former with the latter and seems like in the process I fell for what's evidently a pretty common trap.

Which, in hindsight I should've figured since, like you said that same train of logic gets broadened until it's outright being weaponized to keep the LGBTQ+ community from being remotely visible. And that aspect of the "think of the kids" argument I was aware of, so folly for me there.

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#3803: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:10:47 AM

The thing that occurs to me is, fursuiting is broadly similar to, say, leather (an outfit-based paraphilia that's very visible), but A) we have furry cons - not to downplay the blood, sweat, and tears people have put in to make those acceptable and safe, of course - and B), baseball/football mascots exist. Unless your fursuit has visible genitals, it's fundamentally the same thing as something that gets broadcast to millions. Just like how all but the skimpiest of leather/kink outfits are going to cover more than you might see going to a public beach.

It's been fun.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Dancing with myself
Unreasonably Quirky
#3804: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:12:22 AM

The other level is "but how do I explain this to my kids!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" bullshit. It's people trying to make it sound like explaining a leather or latex outfit or whatever requires you to to into extreme depth on what exactly happens behind closed doors when the kid probably sees stuff on the same level in movies and on TV anyway. At worst, the parent can just say "it's a costume for adults because they're having fun" and the kid will probably accept that.

See, I agree with most of this. Leather and spandex aren't inherently sexual, those outfits are usually no less revealing than what people wear to the beach, and as a queer guy myself, I find it infuriating how conservatives think that we're "sexualizing children" just by existing in their vicinity. Plus, again, kink is a major part of pride, and the last thing I want to do is throw certain people under the bus just because they don't fall neatly in line with social norms.

But fuck, even I have a limit. No adult should be twerking in a thong in front of a five-year-old, no matter what their gender or sexual orientation is. In fact, genuine question: if I tweet something in support of LGBTQ pride, and some right winger responds with a picture or video of, well, that, what do I say in response? How do I win that argument without disparaging a huge part of our community?

I love to learn, I love to yearn, and most of all... I love to make money.
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#3805: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:14:36 AM

[up] Just block them. People who do that are entirely uninterested in having a conversation and a lot of the stuff they show is false flag things designed to look bad. I'm dead serious.

Not Three Laws compliant.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#3806: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:16:46 AM

It’s like how Right wing lunatics join dating apps for lesbians and transwomen, only to consistently catfish each other in their attempts to target Transwomen to harm them.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#3807: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:33:45 AM

I don't think people should be bringing young children to Pride events if they don't want their child exposed to kink. Teenagers should be able to understand there are going to be kinksters there and decide whether they want to be exposed to that aspect of the community.

On the other hand, I don't really want to see fursuits with huge animal genetalia, or diaper fetishists, or someone acting like a dog on a leash. And I really wish it was legal to beat the rare MAP that shows up into a bloody pulp. So I kind of get when people get uncomfortable. But really right wing people and corporations really don't bring these points up out of genuine concern, it's usually concern trolling and/or wanting a squeaky clean image to get people to consume product.

Oissu!
RainehDaze Figure of Hourai from Scotland (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Serial head-patter
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#3809: Jun 1st 2023 at 8:35:46 AM

"Minor-Attracted Person". In other words, actual pedophiles that delude themselves into thinking they're welcome in the community.

It's not a common problem that they show up to Pride events, but it's not as rare as you'd hope. And they deserve to get beaten up when they show their ugly mugs.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 1st 2023 at 9:36:18 AM

Oissu!
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3810: Jun 1st 2023 at 9:41:29 AM

Pride is not just about being queer, but also about self expression. And as long as you express yourself in a way that doesn’t harm innocents, then I approve no matter how weird it is. That includes kink.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jun 1st 2023 at 12:41:52 PM

ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#3811: Jun 1st 2023 at 9:52:39 AM

Yes, but we have to be careful of the "harmful to innocents" language because that always gets twisted to mean almost anything. I like the benchmark suggested in another post that if the outfit covers as much as anything you'd see at a beach/pool then there should be no problem. I personally would push it further than that but I think that's a standard people can agree on.

Edited by ciyinwanderer on Jun 1st 2023 at 12:53:03 PM

“Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands." ~Anthony Bourdain
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#3812: Jun 1st 2023 at 10:26:45 AM

Yeah, it's absurd that you get people wailing about kink and revealing outfits and then you realize they're talking about like, a full body leather suit. The exact type of thing where if you saw a biker wearing it, you wouldn't bat an eye.

And then they have zero problem with going to a beach and exposing their kids to people in skimpy swimsuits.

If a guy at the beach wearing a too-small speedo just gets an "ugh" and not much else but a guy in a pride parade wearing leather pants and boots and a harness gets you to freak out, you've got really wonky priorities. Like, sure, wearing something like that is generally part of a kink, but like...it's generally not "I get off on people seeing me like this" there's a more elaborate thing involved that isn't happening in the context of a public pride event.

Edited by Zendervai on Jun 1st 2023 at 1:46:00 PM

Not Three Laws compliant.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#3813: Jun 1st 2023 at 11:38:01 AM

Leather is so tame, honestly. Like really, you see all-leather or latex ensembles on primetime TV, for god's sake.

Oissu!
Lyendith I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane! from Bègles, France Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
I'm not insane, I'm not… not insane!
#3814: Jun 11th 2023 at 7:07:03 PM

Interesting thing in France, associations decided to create a "Suburb Pride" separate from the Parisian one. According to the organizers, they want to put some focus on specific issues LGBT+ people face in poorer and less "white" neighborhoods (which are mostly the suburban cities in France), especially when it comes to healthcare, and put some protest back in Pride which they think has become too sanitized and business-oriented.

Some notably point out the fact that the 2021 law opening assisted reproduction technology to lesbian couples still excludes trans men or that non-white people have to wait five times longer than white people for gamete donations.

I wonder if there are similar attempts in other countries to "return to the roots"?

Flippé de participer à ce grand souper, je veux juste m'occuper de taper mon propre tempo.
Minmus The Fool from Hell Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
The Fool
#3815: Jun 14th 2023 at 6:46:33 PM

It seems that Russia has passed a new law that makes it completely illegal to transition, therefore effectively legislating trans people out of existence. Unfortunately, I couldn't find much information on this outside of a post on Mastodon linking to an article in Russian.

[up] It does feel like pride has become too corporate and serves only wealthier privileged LGBT people most of the time, yeah.

Edited by Minmus on Jun 14th 2023 at 10:50:33 AM

Sick of everything.
PresidentStalkeyes The Best Worst Psychonaut from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
The Best Worst Psychonaut
#3816: Jun 14th 2023 at 10:29:21 PM

Personal experience speaking but I do get the sense in queer communities that there's growing dissatisfaction with how corporatized Pride has gotten (in particular how it sidelines groups that aren't considered 'palatable', like the Leather crowd) and calls to return to its roots, so I'm expecting to see more of this sort of thing going forward.

Also re: Russia: honestly surprised they hadn’t already done that years ago.

"If you think like a child, you will do a child's work."
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#3817: Jun 15th 2023 at 6:49:15 AM

[up] It's been trending that way for about a decade, but if anything, I've seen the opposite this June. Lots of North Americans are a little concerned about how few companies are even pretending to support pride this year. Generally, corporations do PR that will net them the greatest profits. But public opinion is changing (or at least homophobes are getting much louder without an equivalent response). After the Budweiser debaucle, it seems that companies no longer feel that signalling they support queer people is profitable. It's not that corporate pride was actually meaningful or fun, it's that the rollback signals a worrying trend in public opinion.

Edited by indigoJay on Jun 15th 2023 at 9:50:08 AM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3818: Jun 15th 2023 at 7:19:07 AM

But public opinion is changing (or at least homophobes are getting much louder without an equivalent response)

It's the latter, by every metric the public's view of queer rights continues to improve.

The issue is that queerphobes are highly organized and aggressive so corporate milksops capitulate to them.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
NesClassic Inheritor of the Wing from Flyover Country Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: In another castle
Inheritor of the Wing
#3819: Jun 15th 2023 at 7:40:16 AM

Corporations wanted to have their cake and eat it too with pride already anyways (c. Yum! Brands getting called out for making massive donations in favor of anti-queer legislation despite their individual franchises claiming to support it on social media) so it probably didn't take much nudging from violent bigots to scare them off.

I mentioned in another thread that I don't personally mind rainbow corporatism much just because it at least normalizes queer people existing at all, even if it's at the expense of forcing a squeaky-clean standard they expect everyone to conform to. But... still, can't say I'm not a little upset (if still unsurprised) at how spineless the corpos are being because of the Budweiser headassery.

Edited by NesClassic on Jun 15th 2023 at 10:40:59 AM

🏳️‍⚧️she/her | Vio Rhyse Alberia
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#3820: Jun 15th 2023 at 7:57:29 AM

The funny thing is that by capitulating to the bigots, Budweiser just ended up getting even less popular. Bigots haven't gone back to Budweiser and whatever LGBT+ support they had disappeared instantly.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#3822: Jun 15th 2023 at 8:02:05 AM

I mean, there's no neutrality here. Budweiser took a stance, then immediately backpedaled on it, and that's a really good way to lose both sides' respect.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 15th 2023 at 9:02:37 AM

Oissu!
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#3823: Jun 15th 2023 at 8:29:12 AM

It's the latter, by every metric the public's view of queer rights continues to improve.

Depends on what segment of "queer" you're referring to. Gay and bisexual people? Sure. Trans people? Well...in the US, at least, the share of people who believe gender can be different from sex assigned at birth has been dropping since 2017. The majority still favour anti-discrimination laws, but that doesn't mean support "continues to improve."

And this is the worldwide thread. Things are not looking great in Europe either. Ironically, some countries in Asia and Africa have been making more progress, but corporate pride was never much of a thing in most parts of the world.

Edited by indigoJay on Jun 15th 2023 at 11:30:19 AM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3824: Jun 15th 2023 at 8:50:11 AM

Trans people? Well...in the US, at least, the share of people who believe gender can be different from sex assigned at birth has been dropping since 2017. The majority still favour anti-discrimination laws, but that doesn't mean support "continues to improve."

That's still support. The average person knows very little about gender, sex, or anything related. That they don't have the correct opinion on it isn't surprising, what matters is that for the substantive issues they're on the right side.

Furthermore there is most certainly continual improvement, 62% of Americans say their support has increased when compared to five years. That's what I mean when I say their views of gender and sex is not the most important thing, ignorance isn't the same as Transphobia and the latter isn't winning over the American public.

That this is a worldwide thread isn't relevant when we're discussing an American company responding to American reactionaries.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 15th 2023 at 8:53:34 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#3825: Jun 15th 2023 at 9:02:55 AM

It's also worth noting that stuff like Target removing pride displays? It's because they kept getting bomb threats. You can't really just ignore that.

Not Three Laws compliant.

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