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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#301: May 24th 2013 at 10:12:50 AM

The Alabama one is the longest written one. The British constitution consists of, at a conservative estimate, around 2500 different statutes, as well as hundreds (thousands?) of court cases, Orders in Council, statutory instruments, ministerial decisions, Henry VIII clauses, international treaties, extra-judicial remakrs, and common law rights. And it is always growing.

It would be impossible to collate the entire constitution - in fact, it is doubtful there are any British academics who can actually recite every single piece. If, theoretically, we could put the entire thing in one continuous document, it would be one of the longest written works in human history.

And yes, I am proud of it! tongue

edited 24th May '13 11:01:22 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#302: May 24th 2013 at 11:33:53 AM

British Constitution is BEST CONSTITUTION.

Bitch please! [lol] Our preamble alone pwns the Magna Carta and all the others after. *

It was an honor
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#303: May 24th 2013 at 12:13:12 PM

[up]I prefer the US Declaration of Independence.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

If you know me you'll know that I think that the God bit is shit and shoehorned into the text to ensure that certain groups accept it; but the bit I highlighted in italics is the bit that I love the most in that declaration. I honestly think it's one of the best documents that mankind has produced - well, from those that I've seen, anyway.

Our Declaration of Independence isn't too shabby, either:

The Finnish Parliament has ... declared to be the Supreme holder of the State Authority as well as set up a Government to the country, that has taken to its primary task the realisation and safeguarding Finland’s independence as a state. The people of Finland have by this step taken their fate in their own hands: a step both justified and demanded by present conditions. The people of Finland feel deeply that they cannot fulfil their national duty and their universal human obligations without a complete sovereignty. The century-old desire for freedom awaits fulfilment now; The People of Finland has to step forward as an independent nation among the other nations in the world.

(Again, I've highlighted the bits I particularly like.)

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#304: May 24th 2013 at 12:14:57 PM

And American constitution is very flexible without being unnecessarily long. It's one of best models on which new constitutions can be based.

My President is Funny Valentine.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#305: May 24th 2013 at 12:18:52 PM

I'm not quite sure how one can shoehorn God references when at the time the majority of the citizenry hewed Protestant Christian, but, okay.

It was an honor
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#306: May 24th 2013 at 12:22:06 PM

[up]

The significant Founding Fathers were mainly deist, and in the case of Jefferson, possibly even atheist. Indeed, the formulation is interesting "Nature's God" is a more deist idea - they don't use the more obvious "Lord", "God, the Father" or some other such explicitly Christian configurations. It smacks of compromise between the radical deists like Paine and the Christians.

edited 24th May '13 12:24:01 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#307: May 24th 2013 at 12:26:45 PM

The point is, Best Of, Shima, and other Mods and tropers, seem virulently paranoid of any mention of America's Christian influences, no matter how much the historical record shows it's there.

Not everyone in the south is a Southern Baptist, and it would be as wrong to say so as it would be to say the Founding Fathers were all Christians. But the influence, especially at that time, wouldn't necessitate a mention of "Nature's God" being shoehorned in.

For all we know one of the atheist (if there truly were atheists) would've put it in without a thought.

It was an honor
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#308: May 24th 2013 at 12:26:53 PM

[up]Of the people who signed the Declaration of Independence and/or the Constitution a large number were atheists, agnostic or deists. Not necessarily a majority of them, but a significant number, anyway. For example, Thomas Jefferson had a Bible that omitted all references to the supernatural - miracles and such.

They established freedom of religion (including freedom from religion) into the founding documents of the US because if they hadn't many of the people who wrote those documents would not have agreed to sign them.

It's a myth that the US was founded upon Christianity.

I'm not saying that many of the founders weren't Christian - many of them were, but not all of them. And they probably never meant for Christianity to be a fundamental part of American society - they didn't want to ban it from being important, but it wasn't supposed to have a strong standing by default, either.

edited 24th May '13 12:30:20 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#309: May 24th 2013 at 12:28:55 PM

"It's a myth America was founded on Christianity" is indeed a myth. No more or less a myth than "America, especially Colonial America, had no Christian influence."

It was an honor
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#310: May 24th 2013 at 12:30:27 PM

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

Schild und Schwert der Partei
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#311: May 24th 2013 at 12:31:25 PM

[up][up]My previous post was ninja'd so I'm posting again.

But the influence, especially at that time, wouldn't necessitate a mention of "Nature's God" being shoehorned in.

This is an interesting point. It is of course true that God(s) is/are often mentioned as a rhetorical device - such as Einstein saying that "God doesn't throw dice" and Hawking saying that science can "know the mind of God." This usage of God in the same symbolic sense in which we might mention an entity from Greek or Norse mythology isn't a problem until someone takes it literally.

"It's a myth America was founded on Christianity" is indeed a myth. No more or less a myth than "America, especially Colonial America, had no Christian influence."

This statement is absolutely correct.

edited 24th May '13 12:31:33 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#312: May 24th 2013 at 12:33:19 PM

The extent of that influence is difficult to determine, however. Jefferson and Paine in particular were openly contemptuous of Christianity. This is one reason Jefferson was one of Paine's six mourners.

edited 24th May '13 12:34:59 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#313: May 24th 2013 at 12:34:38 PM

[up] I'm Christian and sometimes I'm outright contemptuous of alleged Christianity.

Still doesn't change the fact the US Constitution is BOSS. Bitches. wink

edited 24th May '13 12:35:08 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#314: May 24th 2013 at 12:35:07 PM

Manny deists could be atheists since the former was more socially acceptable.

My President is Funny Valentine.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#315: May 24th 2013 at 12:35:53 PM

[up][up]It is. But as I said, the Declaration of Independence is even better.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
QuestionMarc Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#316: May 24th 2013 at 12:36:05 PM

You guys are so off-topic right now.

I hate to be the party pooper, but I thought I'd remind you.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#317: May 24th 2013 at 12:39:53 PM

The French Revolution gave us this:

Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.

Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.

[up]EDIT: Shit, you're right! Sorry about that.

edited 24th May '13 12:40:10 PM by BestOf

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TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#318: May 24th 2013 at 12:42:58 PM

[up] Wait, did a Mod just get topic-thumped by a troper???!! [lol][tup]

Ladies and gentlemen, only in OTC!

It was an honor
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#319: May 24th 2013 at 12:56:28 PM

I don't want to thump a post with content. So I'll make an empty post and thump that, to show that a Mod can get thumped for off-topicness.

"But you're abusing your authority instead of proving a point!"

Yeah. What are you going to do about it?

I hope this is obvious, but I'm doing this for a joke. Don't take this seriously.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#320: May 24th 2013 at 12:56:33 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping. Stay on topic, please.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#321: May 24th 2013 at 1:28:07 PM

[lol][awesome] You are truly deserving of your moniker, Best Of.

It was an honor
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
#322: May 24th 2013 at 1:37:38 PM

Any rough estimates on how long it might take the House of Lords to make their decision?

QuestionMarc Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#323: May 24th 2013 at 1:51:59 PM

So I called a mod into thumping himself, do I get a mod-hat yet? No? Okay.

A guy can dream.

(I'm done now)

EDIT: DER MOD HAT IST MEIN, VICTORY

edited 24th May '13 2:33:28 PM by QuestionMarc

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#324: May 24th 2013 at 1:54:41 PM

[up]You're welcome.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
optimusjamie Since: Jun, 2010
#325: May 24th 2013 at 1:58:49 PM

[up][up][up]Not sure... It'll happen before protons begin to decay, that's for certain.

Direct all enquiries to Jamie B Good

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