Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread
.
Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM
I prefer the US Declaration of Independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
If you know me you'll know that I think that the God bit is shit and shoehorned into the text to ensure that certain groups accept it; but the bit I highlighted in italics is the bit that I love the most in that declaration. I honestly think it's one of the best documents that mankind has produced - well, from those that I've seen, anyway.
Our Declaration of Independence isn't too shabby, either:
(Again, I've highlighted the bits I particularly like.)
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
The significant Founding Fathers were mainly deist, and in the case of Jefferson, possibly even atheist. Indeed, the formulation is interesting "Nature's God" is a more deist idea - they don't use the more obvious "Lord", "God, the Father" or some other such explicitly Christian configurations. It smacks of compromise between the radical deists like Paine and the Christians.
edited 24th May '13 12:24:01 PM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der ParteiThe point is, Best Of, Shima, and other Mods and tropers, seem virulently paranoid of any mention of America's Christian influences, no matter how much the historical record shows it's there.
Not everyone in the south is a Southern Baptist, and it would be as wrong to say so as it would be to say the Founding Fathers were all Christians. But the influence, especially at that time, wouldn't necessitate a mention of "Nature's God" being shoehorned in.
For all we know one of the atheist (if there truly were atheists) would've put it in without a thought.
It was an honor
Of the people who signed the Declaration of Independence and/or the Constitution a large number were atheists, agnostic or deists. Not necessarily a majority of them, but a significant number, anyway. For example, Thomas Jefferson had a Bible that omitted all references to the supernatural - miracles and such.
They established freedom of religion (including freedom from religion) into the founding documents of the US because if they hadn't many of the people who wrote those documents would not have agreed to sign them.
It's a myth that the US was founded upon Christianity.
I'm not saying that many of the founders weren't Christian - many of them were, but not all of them. And they probably never meant for Christianity to be a fundamental part of American society - they didn't want to ban it from being important, but it wasn't supposed to have a strong standing by default, either.
edited 24th May '13 12:30:20 PM by BestOf
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.![]()
My previous post was ninja'd so I'm posting again.
This is an interesting point. It is of course true that God(s) is/are often mentioned as a rhetorical device - such as Einstein saying that "God doesn't throw dice" and Hawking saying that science can "know the mind of God." This usage of God in the same symbolic sense in which we might mention an entity from Greek or Norse mythology isn't a problem until someone takes it literally.
This statement is absolutely correct.
edited 24th May '13 12:31:33 PM by BestOf
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.The French Revolution gave us this:
Law can only prohibit such actions as are hurtful to society. Nothing may be prevented which is not forbidden by law, and no one may be forced to do anything not provided for by law.
EDIT: Shit, you're right! Sorry about that.
edited 24th May '13 12:40:10 PM by BestOf
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.I don't want to thump a post with content. So I'll make an empty post and thump that, to show that a Mod can get thumped for off-topicness.
"But you're abusing your authority instead of proving a point!"
Yeah. What are you going to do about it?
I hope this is obvious, but I'm doing this for a joke. Don't take this seriously.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.![]()
![]()
Not sure... It'll happen before protons begin to decay, that's for certain.

The Alabama one is the longest written one. The British constitution consists of, at a conservative estimate, around 2500 different statutes, as well as hundreds (thousands?) of court cases, Orders in Council, statutory instruments, ministerial decisions, Henry VIII clauses, international treaties, extra-judicial remakrs, and common law rights. And it is always growing.
It would be impossible to collate the entire constitution - in fact, it is doubtful there are any British academics who can actually recite every single piece. If, theoretically, we could put the entire thing in one continuous document, it would be one of the longest written works in human history.
And yes, I am proud of it!
edited 24th May '13 11:01:22 AM by Achaemenid
Schild und Schwert der Partei