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Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#3201: Sep 13th 2021 at 5:02:46 AM

Guardian UK is only marginally better than any other UK media when it comes to covering trans issues. They won't go out of their way to misgender or be needlessly cruel... but they will 'just ask questions' quite a bit. And of course they ask anti-trans sources for the answers instead of going to trans people.

I'm still not sure how to understand the fiasco with the Butler interview. The Gender Critical crowd is saying they didn't ask for it to be taken down... but they certainly were making a lot of noise about it. I'm wondering what was going through the editors' heads when they removed that portion of the interview... and why they haven't restored it. I personally think they took it down because it specifically made the Guardian and its editors look bad for all the anti-trans positions they support, since Butler called out how it lines up with the far right, and you can't fight the far right effectively if you are fighting *with* them on some issues.

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#3202: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:01:47 AM

Which major UK news outlets have the least transphobic reputation right now?

Probably The Guardian…

The UK media environment is very hostile to transgender folks, it was pretty recently that the BBC tried to ban certain staff from attending Pride events that “mentioned the transgender issue”, on the grounds that showing respect for transgender people would violate the rules of political neutrality that some BBC staff are bound by.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3203: Sep 13th 2021 at 6:19:36 AM

I'd say The Independent, but that's still relative.

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HalfFaust Since: Jan, 2019
#3204: Sep 13th 2021 at 9:19:18 AM

Yeah I'd say that no major UK outlet is actually good to trans people. It's a serious problem.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3205: Sep 13th 2021 at 10:02:04 AM

showing respect for transgender people would violate the rules of political neutrality that some BBC staff are bound by.

Which is definitely a bold claim to make when they're constantly releasing articles under misleading headlines.

Politically neutral they are not.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
TommyR01D Since: Feb, 2015
#3206: Sep 13th 2021 at 10:07:40 AM

I looked for some responses to Butler.

From UnHerd
Judith Butler’s toxic nonsense by Gareth Roberts
Her mastery of claptrap would be hilarious if it weren't so dangerous
Judith Butler showing how hegemonic power structures are intrinsic totalities in the theoretical conception of... oh, I give up.

The intellectual shabbiness of Judith Butler by Sam Leith
Rather than bring helpful clarity to the trans debate, the revered professor engaged in wilful obtuseness and whataboutery
Post-structuralist, feminist, wilfully obtuse.

From The Independent
Judith Butler is right – feminism is about inclusivity by Katie Edwards
The ‘sisterhood’ seems to have become something of an exclusive members’ club, deflecting attention away from its more insidious attitudes by targeting vulnerable groups for criticism

From Sp!ked
How the Guardian became the Pravda of the trans movement by Jo Bartosch
It censored its interview with Judith Butler when an inconvenient truth emerged about a trans sex offender.

From GB News

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#3207: Sep 13th 2021 at 10:10:41 AM

>GBNews

*vomits*

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Captain1312 Since: Aug, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#3208: Sep 13th 2021 at 12:56:17 PM

[up][up]4 out of 5 is pretty bad and a pretty fair reflection on the levels of transphobia in the UK press.

1212, 1312
TommyR01D Since: Feb, 2015
#3209: Sep 13th 2021 at 1:29:43 PM

These aren't necessarily all the responses in the country, just the ones I could find from news sources whose names came quickly to mind.

Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3210: Sep 13th 2021 at 1:45:05 PM

I don't think I've even heard of UnHeard...which I suppose tracks.

EDIT: It appears to be marked as transphobic and rather self congratulatory, though.

Edited by Bisected8 on Sep 13th 2021 at 9:46:52 AM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
TommyR01D Since: Feb, 2015
#3211: Sep 13th 2021 at 1:54:37 PM

It's Herd without an a, as in herd of cows. They present themselves as part of a campaign against tribalism.

Their columnists consistently take the critical/exclusionary stance on gender identity issues, and such articles make up a rather large proportion of their overall output.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#3212: Sep 14th 2021 at 10:51:31 AM

I just don't understand why British media is so bad about this? I mean, it's not like the media in other countries is great on trans issues. Yet where others are dismissive of trans issues, only the British seem to be on an obsessed crusade against them.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3213: Sep 14th 2021 at 10:57:54 AM

The difference seems to be that while transphobia is very real and powerful in the US it's mostly a partisan issue, our Left has gotten behind trans rights and that commitment (for the most part) only increases the more left-wing you get.

But the UK by contrast has a fairly bipartisan form of transphobia where it's not just in the domain of the Right but also pushed by center-left sources like the Guardian.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#3214: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:04:49 AM

Britain has a unique position regarding the transgender issue. I think I heard it first from Abigal Thorne of Philosophy Tube that argued that a lot of prominent feminist philosophers from the United Kingdom were either second wave feminists or find the specific brand of femininity to be anchored directly to biological...performance.

Anyways, basically, that in the UK the feminist movement and the important figures on them would need to take a hard ugly look at itself and it does not want to because it seems to be a prideful point of contention.

Not saying that cimparatively in the U.S or anywhere else those positions do not exist, but in general the british demeanor seems to think of dealing with transgender people as a bit of a rocking the boat situation.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#3215: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:27:54 AM

Yeah but... feminism is all about rocking the boat anyway. Or do they try to appease the powers that be, by throwing the less fortunate under the bus?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3216: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:29:53 AM

So is racial justice and yet MLK was immediately appropriated after he died, there is no idea in the world that cannot be weaponized by the powerful to defend their power.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#3217: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:31:14 AM

The problem is that these specific forms of feminism (radical feminism) evolved down a path that basically says “men = bad, men = rapists, men = patriarchy”. Combine that with rhetoric that says women are oppressed because of their biology (rather than gender itself), and you get a stance that says “Anyone who doesn’t have a functioning womb and vagina is the enemy”.

So they became actual straw feminists who believe any form of sex involving a penis is rape.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#3218: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:44:12 AM

Yeah but... feminism is all about rocking the boat anyway. Or do they try to appease the powers that be, by throwing the less fortunate under the bus?

I am sad I lost a quote that said this far more clearly than I ever could but...basically, you will fight for some freedoms and once you attain those, any new freedoms seem, if not repressive, completely unnecesary.

Basically, to some feminists, the political goal of feminism is concrete and once achieved anything else is unnecesary or "not the feminism I know!" sort of thought. Call this goal something like reproductive rights, voting, or something else.

Yeah feminism is about rocking the boat, but to some interpretations, you just need to rock it once. More would be excessive, right?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#3219: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:46:39 AM

[up][up][up]Appropriated by the right, yes. But you don't see modern civil rights activists in the US fight to deny civil rights to other minorities. If it was just the right appropriating feminism to fight trans rights, it wouldn't be anything special. But it's UK feminists and media that are doing this which is baffling.

[up][up]Yet TER Fs do ally with men. Particularly fascists, the ones that are the epitome of the patriarchy. And these alt-right men, who whine about man-hating feminists, align with feminists. As long as they are the man-hating kind. It's clear they're just bigots cut from the same cloth.

Edited by Antiteilchen on Sep 14th 2021 at 8:46:55 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#3220: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:51:18 AM

I believe the technical term is “fuck you, got mine”, Feminism edition.

Notice that this didn’t use to be as huge a thing, the 2010 Equalities Act protects people based on gender reassignment as a specific named characteristic. I don’t think that was a particularly huge thing when Brown passed the act.

That’s bled into civil society in a way that means this didn’t used to be a large-scale issue. But with a media environment that’s dominated by socially regressive organisations that are flexing their muscles, plus prominent Feminists who are opposed to trans-rights it’s become a large scale thing than it used to be.

Pronounce blocks in emails and gender neutral bathrooms aren’t a particularly weird thing over here, the anger towards the transgender community is heavily concentrated at the top of society.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#3221: Sep 14th 2021 at 11:54:56 AM

It seems to be an UK thing only, too. Elsewhere opposition to transgender rights is based on vanilla reactionary politics (e.g USA) and has no link to feminism that I hear about.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#3222: Sep 14th 2021 at 12:11:21 PM

You gotta admit that point of view those match a bit with the idea of british temperament, no? :P

"Why yes we will consider the "Transgender question", lads and lasses, just hold your horses. There's just so many questions aren't there, and it is hard when so many interesting people raise some interesting questions, you see? By jolly if the "transgender" question (I'm not a bigot, by the way!) weren't so hotly debated, why, by the Queen, you'd be granted all this you ask for and more!

Plase do stop by another time, maybe when it is perceived for it to be calm and collected to support "The Transgenders", all right?"

Nevermind the fact the "questioning" can be artifically inflated

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3223: Sep 14th 2021 at 12:45:42 PM

It seems to be an UK thing only, too. Elsewhere opposition to transgender rights is based on vanilla reactionary politics (e.g USA) and has no link to feminism that I hear about.

Not quite, TER Fs exist in the US too. It's just that they're not nearly so prominent, you'd never seen a center-left or left-wing media organization give them a platform.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Captain1312 Since: Aug, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#3224: Sep 14th 2021 at 4:21:23 PM

It's a massive problem on the left in the UK, with it going from people who want the debate over trans rights to seemingly go on ad infinitum to those that make absolutely no attempt to hide their transphobia.

As a result, I know quite a few Trans people who feel like political orphans right now.

1212, 1312
TommyR01D Since: Feb, 2015
#3225: Sep 16th 2021 at 9:02:18 AM

The Bell v Tavistock appeal judgement will be handed down at 2pm (UK time) tomorrow.[1]


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