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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in the LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion Thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#3151: Jul 28th 2021 at 2:43:21 PM

See, if my understanding is correct the thing about Iran is that it treats transgender people as second class citizens but not as "criminals against nature" like gay people and sometimes a gender change is accepted as an alternative to being hanged. It's a very different kind of gender change than the one we talk about in the context of transgender people.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3152: Jul 28th 2021 at 2:58:05 PM

The long and the short of it would be that the medical field accepted some very outdated models of trans people (i.e. Blanchard) which posited that all trans people were either cases of Trans Equals Gay (that is to say only attracted to men and interested in becoming perfect housewives) or Buffalo Bill (trans women who displayed anything but exclusive attraction to Dr. Bailey men). This is basically because of the unique way Iran interacted with The West (to simplify things a lot).note 

This lead to the wholehearted belief in TIG as a view of medical transition, which in turn leads to a grudging Got Off On A Technicality attitude to straight trans women or cis gay men who're coerced into transitioning (who are still, naturally, treated like shit, but not outright executed). This isn't actually that different to how LGBTQ+ folk were treated in many parts of the West in decades gone by, but let's not get into that.

It's an unusual legal situation, but doesn't reflect a view of trans people that's any different to cultures with comparable attitudes to LGBTQ+ folk. Just things falling into place strangely.

EDIT: As another aside, for those interested in "detransition", consider also looking up "retransition".

Edited by Bisected8 on Jul 28th 2021 at 11:00:26 AM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#3153: Jul 28th 2021 at 8:10:11 PM

It’s a pretty easy choice to make if you ask me. Unless, again, you want to prioritize the feelings of the few over those of the many.

What, you don't think the role of society is to maximise the greatest number of problems on the people who already have the most to avoid any trouble for a few people?

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3154: Aug 1st 2021 at 11:16:35 PM

Sir Terry Pratchett’s daughter shuts down ‘horrifying’ claims that author would be a transphobe if he were alive

Terry Pratchett’s daughter has shut down the “horrifying” claims that her father would be a transphobe if he were alive, urging people to simply “read the books”.

The prolific Discworld author was famed for his comical tongue-in-cheek critiques of society, genre tropes and gender norms, which he explored in more than 70 novels before he tragically died of early-onset Alzheimers disease in 2015.

Terry Pratchett’s collaborating author, Neil Gaiman, is known for expressing strong trans-inclusive views, prompting one online commenter to suggest Pratchett would have thought differently.

“I thought the fact that you write good fantasy meant that you were acquainted with reality,” they tweeted. “After learning this about you, it seems however more likely like that was Pratchett’s contribution to your partnership.”

Another agreed: “Honestly have no idea how anyone can read Pratchett, esp. the Witches, and think he didn’t know what ‘female’ is and means in the world.”

The mischaracterisation was unacceptable to Pratchett’s daughter, Rhianna, who took to Twitter on Saturday (31 July) to respond to the so called “gender critical” people trying to co-opt her father’s legacy.

“This is horrifying. My father would most definitely not be a GC if he was still alive. Read. The. Books,” she wrote.

“If you’re desperately trying to recruit the dead to your cause then you should probably have a big think about just what you’re supporting.”

To drive home her point Rhianna retweeted the author Richard Cobbett, who said: “One of the many reasons that I’m proud to be a lifelong fan of [the Discworld] series is its compassion and devotion to humanity in all of its forms – and that includes many, many characters willing to take control of their own destinies in a world that wants them to be quiet.

“But even on just this one tiny sliver of the things the books did, if [gender-critical people] can read the likes of, say, Fifth Elephant and Monstrous Regiment and go ‘Oh, yeah, totes on our side’ then… I don’t even know what to say.” Terry Pratchett included strong trans themes in his books

Those claiming Terry Pratchett was anti-trans had clearly forgotten about his character Cheery Littlebottom, the first dwarf to present as a woman.

Although the bearded dwarf was technically cis her story had a strong transgender subtext, including her insistence on she/her pronouns and her determination to be read as female.

A flood of Discworld fans quickly chimed in to remind people of this, as well as the other gender non-conforming themes in Pratchett’s work.

But in case any doubt remains, one fan unearthed an old interview with FTL in which Terry Pratchett makes his views crystal clear.

“The people I know who are gay (and one [transgender], I think – like the dwarfs, I don’t ask people what they’re not prepared to volunteer), are mostly within the SF/fantasy fandom which appears, at least, to be quite amiable about people’s sexuality so long as they don’t act like a jerk,” he said.

When asked whether trans characters are more common and accepted in sci-fi and fantasy, Sir Terry replied simply: “As above. Without a shadow of a doubt.”

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3155: Aug 1st 2021 at 11:22:14 PM

Yeah, it's scummy as hell to try to appropriate someone who is dead and thus can no longer refute said appropriation.

So par for the course with transphobes.

Disgusted, but not surprised
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#3156: Aug 1st 2021 at 11:34:03 PM

Not that Pterry needs to be alive to refute that assumption. His books already do a decent job at that.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#3157: Aug 1st 2021 at 11:36:34 PM

Not that I expect any of these transphobes have actually read any of his books.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#3158: Aug 1st 2021 at 11:52:07 PM

I assume they read Equal Rites only and the entire concept of nuance and comedy flies over their head.

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#3159: Aug 2nd 2021 at 12:57:53 AM

These are the people who tried to draw parallels between themselves and the titular oppressed caste in The Handmaid's Tale until Atwood shouted at them for being stupid. Which is why now they only stick to trying to appropriate dead authors who can't object.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3160: Aug 2nd 2021 at 1:26:07 AM

I was about to wisecrack about Tolkien as an exemplar of Anglo-Saxon nationalism, homophobia and transphobia, but the joke sounded like something they'd say without any sense of irony.

Edited by Ramidel on Aug 2nd 2021 at 12:26:48 AM

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#3161: Aug 2nd 2021 at 1:27:22 AM

See also that letter where he told whatever Nazi bigwig who quizzed him about his ancestry to go away and that he wished he'd had Jewish ancestors just to piss that guy off.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#3162: Aug 2nd 2021 at 8:05:51 AM

Update on Laurel Hubbard: She, as expected by trans people who said this a million times, did not do very well and came nowhere near getting a medal.

Of course, transphobes are now defaulting to “she stole a spot from someone better”. Even though, you know, she had to have done better than other athletes in New Zealand in order to be chosen.

ciyinwanderer Since: Dec, 2018
#3163: Aug 2nd 2021 at 8:11:08 AM

Also, they are saying she intentionally failed out in order to prop up the "trans women don't have an advantage" talking point. Because it can never just be she was an athlete who caved under pressure.

This signature was thumped to preserve the dignity of the moderators.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#3164: Aug 2nd 2021 at 8:14:36 AM

Yeah, like… no matter what we do, it causes outrage. Because just us existing causes outrage.

Also, because someone in this thread (I forget who) was saying Hubbard could potentially lift more than cis women due to her being trans… she failed to even lift the weights all 3 times. So no, she is not physically stronger than them.

Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3165: Aug 2nd 2021 at 8:51:13 AM

It's even worse: GCs are outright blaming Jewish conspiracies paying her off to undermine their movement. Because antisemitism is just a lateral move, I guess.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#3166: Aug 2nd 2021 at 9:11:02 AM

Everything keeps coming back to the Sorosbux, yes.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#3167: Aug 2nd 2021 at 9:29:22 AM

[up][up]

Out of curiosity, when and why have transphobes been allowed to rebrand themselves?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 2nd 2021 at 6:30:14 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#3168: Aug 2nd 2021 at 10:14:09 AM

The answer to "why" is because these are a lot of influential people who are trying to find the best way to present themselves as progressive and forward thinking, and it's not like the general media atmosphere is friendly to start with.

Doesn't matter how many times you call an asshole an asshole if they have media buddies who're going to call them exciting to be around.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3169: Aug 2nd 2021 at 10:20:35 AM

transphobes are now defaulting to “she stole a spot from someone better”.

Given how a similar sentiment went around about Simone Biles withdrawing from most of her finals, unsympathetic folks just really don't know (or care) how elite sports work.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#3170: Aug 2nd 2021 at 3:21:27 PM

On the subject of trans athletes, there will be a trans medalist tomorrow. Quinn (I believe that's her/their only name?), a midfielder on Canada's woman's soccer team, is trans and non-binary. She and her teammates are guaranteed at least silver after beating the US in the semi-finals.

She did win bronze in 2016, but was not out at the time.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Aug 2nd 2021 at 7:22:49 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#3171: Aug 2nd 2021 at 3:52:16 PM

Does trans nonbinary usually mean any medical treatment like M—>F or F—>M, or only name change and change of pronouns?

Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3172: Aug 2nd 2021 at 4:08:49 PM

A nonbinary person may or may not medically transition, same as a binary trans person.

It's worth noting that many nonbinary folk lean one way or the other (e.g. demi-boys and demi-girls) or don't want a purely androgynous presentation (think along the lines of how Janet from The Good Place uses she/her pronouns and presents in a feminine manner, but very resolutely reminds people she's "not a girl").

Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 2nd 2021 at 12:11:37 PM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#3173: Aug 2nd 2021 at 4:29:48 PM

Quinn is nonbinary, yeah, and their name is a mononym. Sadly, them being trans has been overlooked in favor of people wanting to whip themselves into a frenzy over Laurel Hubbard.

Sadly, this reflects the trend of AMAB trans people being swarmed with attention and hatred, while AFAB trans people are ignored and/or infantilized.

Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3174: Aug 2nd 2021 at 4:37:03 PM

[up]x4: While we're on the subject, they use they/them pronouns exclusively. It's a little rude to use she for them in any context.

EDIT: To be clear, that's a British "a little rude"

Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 2nd 2021 at 12:37:53 PM

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#3175: Aug 2nd 2021 at 5:01:00 PM

I was unaware of that, every news site I checked bounced between the two.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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