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Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:51:29 PM
Oh, but the argument against trans athletes competing is that they haven't lost enough advantages to take part, and the alternative isn't just competing under the wrong gender, it's having no chance at all.
Though it's a silly way to go about it, looking for reasons there might be an advantage (and incidentally disqualifying cisgender athletes, whoops) rather than seeing if that advantage actually leads to results or if it's just analysts overthinking it.
@Zarastro: Ok, but someone is always going to be excluded by qualifiers, whether trans athletes compete or not. And what, you don't think trans athletes also dream of being in the Olympics or work their asses off to qualify? Aren't their dreams and efforts also valid?
(Edit:
by eagle)
And I still don't see how the lack of long-term data justifies keeping trans athletes out. If anything, getting data from their full participation in the Olympics and beyond would be useful for collecting said data.
Edited by Kardavnil on Jul 28th 2021 at 7:46:02 AM
Roll a Constitution saving throw to make it through the year.The idea that trans athletes would be dashing the hopes of cis athletes feels very similar to the argument that letting minors transition might lead to cis kids coming out and later on realizing they’re not trans.
As in, both arguments prioritize the feelings of cis people as being more important than those of trans people. That all trans people should be held down just to avoid accidentally maybe possibly negatively impacting a cis person.
Considering how inherently selective the Olympics is in the first place, it is pretty suspect to act as if losing a spot to a trans person must be so much more crushing than losing it to a cis person, which I have to happen occurs for the majority of people anyway.
And if your position is that it is much more crushing it kind of begs the question of why you think that, and what your priorities and biases actually are.
Has anyone here claimed that it does? The changed rules will allow us to get those long-term data and allow science to make an informed decision on this later. What I am objecting to is the notion that science has already made a decision on that.
Alright, I misunderstood you slightly, so I apologize for that. I still find your argument rather bizarre, since sports aren't 100% fair even if we only count cis people (what with variations in individual inherited traits). So I really don't see why, even if trans athlete participation would produce "unfair" results, this would matter. Again, we readily accept many other kinds of inherent advantages without whining about how it denies hardworking dreamers from spots in the Olympics.
Do the people (trans or cis) who miss out because of the current transphobic system not deserve the same respect for their Olympic ambitions?
We have actual documented cases of people who spent a lifetime training for the Olympics being excluded because of transphobia, does that not matter? Should it not carry more weight than the zero cases of trans athletes having an unfair advantage against same-gender competitors?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran@smokeycut: …..wait, you genuinely don’t believe that letting cis kids decide to have a drastic medical procedure done on them unnecessarily (say, because they feel like an outcast or like they’re not conforming to traditional gender roles, and they’re children and casting around for something that will help and don’t always make the best decisions) is something that’s harmful and should be avoided?
Wow…I really could not disagree more.
A 10-year-old is not a position to be able to make that call. It’s not meaningful consent.
Edited by Galadriel on Jul 28th 2021 at 1:28:57 AM
Galadriel: You're welcome to provide examples of these ten year olds undergoing GCS procedures. Or other such "drastic medical procedures".
Edited by Deadbeatloser22 on Jul 28th 2021 at 9:34:52 AM
"Yup. That tasted purple."Yeah, doesn’t transitioning for kids basically mean hormone blockers that can be easily removed (and the body will play catch up quickly enough after removal), letting them go by another name (if they so desire) and acknowledging them as the gender they identify with?
Maybe this is part of why I find some trans issues so easy to process, loads of cis kids at my schools would change their name as part of gaining an understanding of themselves.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranHormone blockers that have been prescribed for a long time to treat kids undergoing precocious puberty without issue. But the second they're used to help give potentially trans kids more time to figure things out before the actually irreversible biological changes kick in then suddenly they're a dangerous and irreversible experimental medication that must not be used.
Edited by Deadbeatloser22 on Jul 28th 2021 at 9:45:10 AM
"Yup. That tasted purple."I think that, as someone who did transition as a teenager, I would have been very upset (as in suicidally so) had I been barred from transitioning until I turned 18. I’m still alive today because I was allowed to transition when I was younger.
Along with what everyone above has said about what transition for minors entails (no surgery, just hormone blockers which are perfectly safe), there’s the fact that minors have to convince
Their parents
A therapist
An endocrinologist & a transition specialist
That they are trans in order to get access to any sort of hormone blockers or HRT. It is a long and well considered process, in which the minor is involved and told of the potential consequences. I was told that breast growth could only be removed via surgery, that my voice wouldn’t change pitch, and told all about the risks to my kidneys. I have also been consistently blood tested ever since in order to keep an eye on my kidneys and ensure they’re still healthy.
Transition is not a scary and dangerous new thing, nor is it harmful to minors. Medical transition as we understand it now has existed since the early part of the 20th century, and has only grown more safe & understood since.
I'm going to be honest, I am extremely suspicious of this fearmongering over cis kids transitioning. I have never once seen any evidence that it's an actual phenomenon that occurs to any significant degree and the only "sources" that talk about it are transphobic hatemongers.
I'm not accusing anyone of being a transphobe but I do think that unless you have evidence you should seriously rethink using that line of argumentation. It doesn't lead anywhere good.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangFully agreed. I have yet to meet anyone who has actually experienced that. Instead, I’ve met several people who did know they were trans from childhood & wished they could have transitioned sooner, as well as a handful of children who were lucky enough (and determined enough) to transition young.
In my senior year of high school, a Spanish teacher talked to me about how her son had become infinitely happier after she realized he was trans and helped him start making changes to his clothes & name. The fact that he was lucky enough to have an accepting mother and also had enough understanding of his own identity to know he wanted to be a boy at such a young age was incredible.
I’ve never seen a cis kid do that.
Wikipedia's piece on the matter
says that there is very little concrete research on the matter but it appears to occur from time to time.
[I note that it has the "needs medical sources" tag, though]
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanYeah, most statistics from medical professionals say detransition happens in less than 1% of cases, and pretty much all of those are the result of pressure from loved ones (child custody is a common one), or transphobia being too much to bare.
Galadriel: You don't genuinely believe trans activists are calling for young children to have surgery, do you?
(quite the opposite, we firmly support intersex people's calls to end unnecessary "correctional" surgeries on intersex infants)
Edited by Bisected8 on Jul 28th 2021 at 10:29:43 AM
TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faerHell, based on the one case I’ve heard of (from someone here) of a cis kid mistakenly believing they were trans it basically boiled down to the kid wanting to escape the rigid gender roles of the oppressive society around them and seeing the idea of being trans as a way out of the rigid gender role society had placed them in that was a horrible fit for them.
Such a situation is not going to happen in a society/community that is accepting of trans kids. Because outside of edge cases like Iran (maybe, I think there’s dispute on if that’s even the reality there) acceptance of transgender people is going to come alongside acceptance of cis people who don’t fit into pigeonholed ideas of gender roles. Thus removing that societal pressure that might push a cis kid into mistakenly thinking they are trans.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
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Not surgery, but I was under the impression that it involved hormone therapies comparable in function to those given to transitioning adults, which had permanent effects, rather than simply delaying puberty.
I definitely agree about deconstructing gender roles.
Edited by Galadriel on Jul 28th 2021 at 2:41:16 AM
Nope, puberty blockers are a completely different thing to HRT (and indeed, as mentioned above, are routinely prescribed to cis kids for a variety of reasons).
That said, HRT is far from permanent, especially if you come off it after a few months (which is why it's absolutely vile to block a transitioning person from it, but that's another tangent).
TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer

Yeah, well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that many trans athletes also dream of competing in the Olympics and would feel very hurt if they're forced to play the part of another gender to even have a shot.
One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.