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Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

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Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#3176: Feb 24th 2016 at 8:40:14 AM

[up]Her position is also the same in Catholic Mariology. She is considered to be the Queen of Heaven and the one with highest intercessionary power amongst all the saints (hence why she is called Queen of All Saints).

EDIT: Did a couple of corrections after I checked with my father.

edited 24th Feb '16 8:44:20 AM by Quag15

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#3177: Feb 24th 2016 at 9:23:46 AM

the Immaculate Conception doctrine is considered infallible and binding

BAH!

lthough the belief that Mary was sinless and conceived immaculate has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#3178: Feb 24th 2016 at 9:42:22 AM

[up]I'm not sure why you're juxtaposing those two quotes; is there some contradiction there that I'm not spotting? Yes, the doctrine was defined later than we tend to assume. But on that point I believe Catholic teaching is, "just because we hadn't bothered to define it carefully until the 19th century, doesn't mean it was untrue before then."

edited 24th Feb '16 9:46:36 AM by Jhimmibhob

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#3179: Feb 24th 2016 at 5:14:46 PM

Actually, it's the Orthodoxy that are making the Immaculate Conception a fight. As said, Benedict XVI would have happily said "whatever dude, we call it Immaculate Conception but this won't break our communion" if the Orthodox Churches were likewise willing to not fight over the point.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#3180: Mar 15th 2016 at 10:50:20 AM

5 new Saints will be added to the roster on September 4th

Among them, we will see Mother Teresa.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#3181: Mar 15th 2016 at 12:25:01 PM

BLEGH.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3183: Mar 18th 2016 at 6:58:32 PM

Old news, dude.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#3184: Mar 24th 2016 at 7:57:56 PM

Is Catholicism a pretty broad tent? It seems like they're pretty accepting of a wide variety of viewpoints that aren't explicitly contradicting their doctrine, and they accept a large amount of leeway in interpretation. Even if the leadership disagrees with it, they leave the possibility open for others.

The leadership is also allowed to change their minds.

On the other hand, I've heard plenty about Catholics being intolerant, particularly on various social issues. I've heard "third way" as an alternative to their disapproval of homosexuality that says to love them, but you still should guide them towards chastity. Needless to say, this is very off-putting to people.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3185: Mar 24th 2016 at 8:19:08 PM

Catholicism consists of a wide spectrum of views from extremely conservative and orthodox to relatively liberal. The last Pope was pretty conservative, and this one is, by comparison, more liberal.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
majoraoftime (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3186: Mar 24th 2016 at 8:22:59 PM

Catholics in the US and Latin America tend to be relatively more liberal than evangelical Protestants. But then, it's not hard to be more liberal than evangelical Protestants.

Pew Research has got the stats on this somewhere, but I'm too lazy to look them up.

edited 24th Mar '16 8:23:36 PM by majoraoftime

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#3187: Mar 24th 2016 at 8:29:46 PM

Is Catholicism a pretty broad tent? It seems like they're pretty accepting of a wide variety of viewpoints that aren't explicitly contradicting their doctrine, and they accept a large amount of leeway in interpretation. Even if the leadership disagrees with it, they leave the possibility open for others.

Yes, there's a good amount of perspectives there, and, as long as it doesn't completely contradict the doctrine, the catechism, and fo sorth, there's a relative diversity of thought. In terms of economic ideologies, to give one example, we have communists, socialists, distributists and subsidiarists (in fact, distributism developed largely due to Catholic social teaching (especially the teachings of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum novarum and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno), fiscal conservatists, corporatists, and so forth. All of these incorporate their respective political ideas within the framework of Catholicism's focus on faith and works.

The leadership is also allowed to change their minds.

Yes, as long as it doesn't go against the (very few) statements which are spoken ex cathedra (translation: 'from [St. Peter's] chair' - which is part of papal infallibility - a lot of people still perceive it as the Pope having more power or less accountability or questioning of anything he says, when it is actually intended to only be used in very specific areas and are used as a way to limit any possibility of the next Popes having too much power or going into areas of thought which may contradict dogma and doctrine).

On the other hand, I've heard plenty about Catholics being intolerant, particularly on various social issues. I've heard "third way" as an alternative to their disapproval of homosexuality that says to love them, but you still should guide them towards chastity. Needless to say, this is very off-putting to people.

I'm gonna refrain from talking about the homosexuality issue, but I can address the other issues. In regards to the social issues, it depends on the issues. Can you point out some to me, so I can give you the general background and diversity of thought?

edited 24th Mar '16 8:38:25 PM by Quag15

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#3188: Mar 24th 2016 at 11:30:49 PM

Catholicism consists of a wide spectrum of views from extremely conservative and orthodox to relatively liberal.

The same applies for the Anglican Church as well. Does anyone know if something similar exists for the Orthodox Churches?

Keep Rolling On
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#3189: Mar 25th 2016 at 12:52:45 AM

Yes, there's a good amount of perspectives there, and, as long as it doesn't completely contradict the doctrine, the catechism, and fo sorth, there's a relative diversity of thought. In terms of economic ideologies, to give one example, we have communists, socialists, distributists and subsidiarists (in fact, distributism developed largely due to Catholic social teaching (especially the teachings of Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Rerum novarum and Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno), fiscal conservatists, corporatists, and so forth. All of these incorporate their respective political ideas within the framework of Catholicism's focus on faith and works.

Hmm yes. I saw a statement from the Church that they preferred virtue ethics and don't see Kantian ethics as being a good fit with Catholicism, while not making a strong statement. I had in mind more non-political/economic philosophy.

Technically, isn't Distributism more of a meta-system theoretically compatible with a large range of views?

I'm gonna refrain from talking about the homosexuality issue, but I can address the other issues. In regards to the social issues, it depends on the issues. Can you point out some to me, so I can give you the general background and diversity of thought?

I had in mind feminism and reproductive rights. I suppose that there's more social issues than that that are a matter of debate among Catholics, but that's the main thing I've heard.

Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#3190: Mar 25th 2016 at 3:32:14 PM

There isn't really much give in the Church's view of reproductive rights. Catholics are often out of step with their church's views, but the Catholic position on abortion is made very clear in the Catechism:

Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth."

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

"You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish."

"God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

- Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2270-2272

Schild und Schwert der Partei
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#3191: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:02:06 PM

And plain old murderers aren't excommunicated? How about executioners? Policemen and soldiers killing in the line of duty? Those who sign off on executions, wars, and prosecutions?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3192: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:45:41 PM

Nope:

"Unless the excusing circumstances outlined in canons 1321-1330[5] exist, the Code of Canon Law imposes latae sententiae excommunication on the following:

  • an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;[6]
  • a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;[7]
  • a person who uses physical force against the Pope;[8]
  • a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the commandment against adultery;[9]
  • a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a papal mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;[10]
  • a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;[11]
  • a person who procures a completed abortion;[12]
  • accomplices without whose assistance a violation of a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication would not have been committed.[13]

edited 25th Mar '16 6:49:27 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3193: Mar 25th 2016 at 6:47:15 PM

The Catholic Church has the adage that killing in self defense is more or less excused, so those hypothetical examples vary on the context. Though by that functioning logic, I believe mothers who abort children due health hazards would theoretically be forgiven.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CassidyTheDevil Since: Jan, 2013
#3194: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:36:02 PM

There isn't really much give in the Church's view of reproductive rights. Catholics are often out of step with their church's views, but the Catholic position on abortion is made very clear in the Catechism:

While I do have some sympathy for pro-life and I considered it, ultimately I decided against it because I feel bodily sovereignty should take precedence.

But there's a lot more to reproductive rights than abortion, even if that's one of the biggest hot-button issues now. What about contraception? Voluntary surgical sterilization? IVF? Preimplantation genetic diagnosis? Human germline editing? Same-sex conception?

hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#3195: Mar 25th 2016 at 9:32:26 PM

Plain old murderers are already taken care of by the law tongue

For contraception and voluntary surgical sterilization, life has yet to be created, so no human gets killed. At least, that's the logic I hear.

Then again, there are anti-contraception people. Someone else tell me if the anti-contraception belief is related to religion?

edited 25th Mar '16 9:33:16 PM by hellomoto

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#3196: Mar 26th 2016 at 3:04:06 AM

"Worldly law punishes this, therefore we need not excommunicate people for it"? By that strange mindset, people who commit abortions in places where it's illegal should also not be excommunicated.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#3197: Mar 26th 2016 at 3:31:40 AM

[up] Depending the Church involved, they're probably not.

Keep Rolling On
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#3198: Mar 26th 2016 at 3:52:55 AM

Abortion and murder are both mortal sins. The point of excommunication latae sententiae is to highlight how wrong a given act in the hope that people will be deterred. You don't really need to do that for murder because no modern culture condones murder. The Church does feel that you need it for abortion since abortion is so widely accepted.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#3199: Mar 26th 2016 at 4:51:18 AM

Does the offender need to be present to be excommunicated?

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#3200: Mar 26th 2016 at 5:30:05 AM

On Good Friday, pope says Islamist militants profane God's name

Pope Francis condemned "unprecedented violence" by Islamist militants, saying at a Good Friday service that followers of religions who carried out acts of fundamentalism or terrorism were profaning God's name.

Security was heavier than usual at a traditional annual Via Crucis (Way of the Cross) candlelight procession around Rome's Colosseum, following the attacks in Brussels that killed at least 31 people. Police reinforcements arrived from other Italian cities, according to security sources.

In an emotional talk at the end of the procession, Francis condemned "expressions of fundamentalism (and) terrorist acts committed by followers of some religions which profane the name of God and which use the holy name to justify their unprecedented violence."

On Thursday he called the bomb attacks in Brussels that killed or wounded people from more than 40 countries a "gesture of war".

Francis condemned politicians who fuel conflict and "arms dealers who feed the cauldron of war with the innocent blood of our brothers and sisters, and give their children bread that has been dipped in blood to eat".

He said Europe's reaction to the migrant crisis had been blunted by "our indifferent and anaesthetised conscience" and decried unchecked destruction of the environment.

After the Brussels attacks, Italy intensified security at what the government has deemed "sensitive sites".

Islamic State militants have made threats against Catholic targets in Rome. Last year, a website used by militants ran a photo montage showing the movement's black flag flying from the obelisk at the centre of St Peter's Square.

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