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Who do you think Tom Bombadil is?

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Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#51: Apr 17th 2013 at 10:02:41 PM

However, in some later letters, Tolkien suggests that the Blue Wizards may have contributed in a very significant way to Sauron's defeat, by hindering his plans in the East and the South.

I don't remember where I've read it, but I like the theory according to which they did so by slaying dragons before they could ally with Sauron, a bit like Gandalf did in the case of Smaug.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#52: Apr 18th 2013 at 2:32:49 PM

[up] I prefer the theory that while Gandalf aided the nations in the south (Rohan and Gondor) under attack from Mordor, Radagast aided the nations in the north under attack from Dol Goldur.

The funny thing about Allatar and Pallando in the east and south is that Sauron had both the east and south completely in his pocket, controlling at least four human nations (Umbar, Harad, Khand, and Rhun). Which begs the question how effective the Blue Wizards were, or how even more numerous Sauron's human forces would have been without their hindrance.

kalel94 Rascal King from Dragonstone Since: Feb, 2011
Rascal King
#53: Apr 18th 2013 at 2:40:31 PM

See, that confuses me, 'cause I was always under the impression that Radagast's job was to take care of the animals and stuff. Seems kind of unfair to leave him out.

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MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#54: Apr 18th 2013 at 6:45:14 PM

[up] I also thought that about Radagast!

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#55: Apr 20th 2013 at 5:05:25 AM

There are hints in [=Lot R] and Sillmarillion of powers aside from the Valar and Maiar. Ungoliant is the most obvious but in Fellowship of the Ring, the book, it's not Saruman who prevents them from going over Caradhras(sp?) but the mountain itself, not because it supports Sauron but because it just doesn't like anyone. So yes, there are geni loci in that universe and I think Tom is at least partly that but something more as well. One of Tokien's letters hinted that he might be the Middle Earth equivalent of Adam.

Trump delenda est
MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#56: Apr 20th 2013 at 5:33:36 AM

One of Tokien's letters hinted that he might be the Middle Earth equivalent of Adam.
Which letter is that?

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#57: Apr 20th 2013 at 5:50:01 AM

Yeah, whatever Tom is, he's something more than a Maia: if Gandalf and Saruman were that susceptible, it stretches credulity to think that anyone of their kind could be utterly immune to the Ring's influence. That leaves us with two choices: either he's some sort of rogue Vala, or he's some sort of ur-creature of Ungoliant's kind—something chthonic, or quasi-Nephilic if you will, an undigested bit of pre-Valaquenta business.

MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#58: Apr 20th 2013 at 10:14:43 PM

he's some sort of ur-creature of Ungoliant's kind—something chthonic, or quasi-Nephilic if you will, an undigested bit of pre-Valaquenta business.
That flawlessly explains why he's "Oldest and fatherless", since we know he can't possibly be Eru.

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Laura from Shintolin Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#59: Apr 24th 2013 at 4:35:31 AM

Loci is the dative of locus. Or genitive. So he's a genius loci. Mind of a place. Genitive.

He's the Doctor. He could be anywhere in time and space.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#60: Apr 25th 2013 at 8:15:54 PM

I don't know, i always assumed that all things that were not Morgoth-spawned monsters, animals, or of the "Free Peoples" were some form of Ainu, though i suppose the text does contradict that with Caradhras or the "nameless things" that roam far beneath the roots of Khazad-Dum

MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#61: Apr 26th 2013 at 12:06:00 AM

[up] He (and Goldberry) are probably ancient powers that aren't Ainu.

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#62: Apr 26th 2013 at 8:21:34 AM

[up][up] Ungoliant also seems to contradict that thought, as I recall.

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tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#63: May 4th 2013 at 2:27:53 PM

[up]x7. Don't recall. It was a very long time ago when the letters were first collected and published

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Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#64: May 10th 2013 at 2:08:35 PM

I just had a really fun crack theory: After Ungoliant wandered into the wilderness and devoured herself, the remains that did not vanish into their own depths took root and became the hungering parts of the Old Forest. Tom and Goldberry are therefore the mostly-digested remains of Telperion and Laurelin.

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Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#65: May 10th 2013 at 3:17:04 PM

[up] works except Ungoliant didn't eat the two trees, she just sort of sucked their sap out.

Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#66: May 10th 2013 at 7:06:57 PM

They stopped shining and died afterward. Clearly the parts she ate were the important parts.

I think the greater impediment to this explanation is that it doesn't resolve Goldberry's connection with the Withywindle.

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VincentQuill Elvenking from Dublin Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Sinking with my ship
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#67: May 11th 2013 at 3:34:02 AM

i reckon tom bombadil has absolutely nothing to do with eru, and existed before ea and arda, and he and eru have no idea of the other's existence. tom is like a smaller scale eru.

'All shall love me and despar!'
MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#68: May 13th 2013 at 7:39:12 PM

tom's like a smaller-scale eru

Interesting...

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#69: May 14th 2013 at 9:08:11 PM

[up][up] Doubtful, as Tom has a very deep connection with Arda itself, albeit in small boundaries he has arbitrarily set.

It could well be that he is a true native of Arda, unlike Eru who existed before, or the Ainur who came from without, and the various peoples, who were all products of Eru or a Vala. Even moreso than the animals (Yavanna made, right?), he could truly be native to the land, which would fit in with what he said about remembering the first tree and the first acorn.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#70: May 15th 2013 at 8:30:40 AM

[up] An emergent entity, produced after the creation of Arda by some unspecified process of the forces already created in it? That could be quite interesting — such an entity might have an interesting perspective on other, directly-created entities, I suppose.

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rfresa Since: Jun, 2012
#71: May 30th 2013 at 12:22:34 AM

I believe Tom is part of the Music of creation, a little melody that floated off into the void and became a sentient being who is only concerned with his own little corner of Middle Earth, having power over everything within it, but incapable of being affected by anything outside.

Everything Tom says, even if it doesn't rhyme, fits into a certain rhythm, as if he's constantly singing. There's also his affinity with water, especially Goldberry. "And it is said by the Eldar that in water there live yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and know not for what they listen." —Ainulindale

This works in universe, and also in a meta way: "Tom Bombadil" was a doll that JRR Tolkien's children played with, which he wrote some songs about. When he was combining elvish history and humble hobbits (originally very separate stories) into his masterpiece The Lord of the Rings, he just couldn't resist adding in that silly little character. Thus, Tolkien is the god of Middle Earth, and Tom came from his music.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#72: Jun 17th 2013 at 8:37:39 PM

Tom lives without any attempt to hold power over anything or anyone, even things obviously harmful to himself. He loves the wilderness without reference to himself, but solely for its own sake.

When the story asks "What is power for?" Sauron answers "All power should be mine, to make everyone obey me." Gandalf and Aragorn answer "Only use your own Eru-given power, and only in harmony with His plan, not for dominion over other people." Bombadil answers "Hey diddly-doo!" and goes prancing off, because power means nothing to him. The Ring cannot affect him, but he can't do anything to it either, and it is utterly irrelevant to his way of thinking.

The elves say that he doesn't have the strength to oppose Sauron, not that he's unwilling to use strength he does have. So I can't see how he can be a Maia or a Vala. (Also, I don't see Melian avoiding Valinor, where her husband presumably got reincarnated.)

I see Tom Bombadil as a genius loci. Good job bringing up Caradhras, whoever did. I think that Eru created Bombadil at the same moment that He made Arda exist. Tom is self-aware and intelligent, but he is a bit of wilderness given form, who doesn't think in the same terms as humans. He remembers the past but doesn't plan for the future. He is reactive, not proactive.

Goldberry, presumably, is a similar sort of being.

Regarding Akallabeth: I've always read that passage as the Valar laying down their authority temporarily, as insufficient to answer the challenge against them. The Valar (specifically, Manwe) were given rule over Arda, but not over the Children of Illuvatarnote . So when the Children directly attacked them, challenging their rule of Arda, they decided that they had no right to directly kill the humans. They also, presumably, didn't want to blow up Eldamar by way of defending it.

But I haven't ever seen that as them giving up their authority over Arda. Maybe it isn't even their place to take that duty off their own shoulders. In any case, I picture them keeping their authority until the End, but becoming increasingly unable to take major action in Middle-earth without destroying more than they save.

edited 17th Jun '13 8:40:24 PM by ArcadesSabboth

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MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
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#73: Jun 18th 2013 at 5:51:15 AM

Tom as Genius Loci is pretty much like him being a nature spirit.

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#74: Jun 18th 2013 at 10:29:18 PM

The Ainur sung the song of Arda, the Music of the Ainur, naming it and making it all at once.

My guess is that Tom Bombadil is literally an echo of Ainulindalë, Arda's own song reflecting the song that birthed it given thought (possibly "during" the portions of the song where Arda was being created, although he would probably only fully be realized when Eru named Eä and made it be).

Goldberry, in turn, might be an echo of an echo, reflecting the fact that "Water is the fullest echo of the Music of the Ainur", as she in turn is related to the water in the forest (which, in its entirety (including the river that runs through it) could represent all of Arda, like Tom) by being some sort of river spirit.

edited 18th Jun '13 10:46:28 PM by Ekuran

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#75: Jun 21st 2013 at 5:48:55 AM

I read through this thread but didn't respond because I don't read Tolkien.

But then, I was looking through Pointless Waste Of Time's thread on weird lines and pages from W Ikipedia, and...

Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil in memory of a Dutch doll which had been flushed down a lavatory.

I don't think that will help anything, but I had to mention it.

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