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Who do you think Tom Bombadil is?

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shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#26: Apr 10th 2013 at 8:11:06 PM

[up][up] I've heard that theory, and while it is a good one, the descriptions of the characters don't really fit with each other. (Although it would be interesting if that was the case, considering that Sauron's former master/teacher was Aule, therefore Aule would be handling the handiwork of his former pupil, so in a sense he would be even more of a natural master of the One Ring than Sauron himself.)

The key to identifying Tom Bombadil lies in a few pieces of information.

  • Tom Bombadil was unaffected by the One Ring, and perhaps had power over it.
  • According to Galdor, "Power to defy our enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
  • He remembers Arda before Morgoth.
  • According to The Book of Lost Tales, Morgoth was the first Valar to enter Arda.
  • According to Word of God, Eru Illuvatar cannot take physical form.

The last statement means Bombadil cannot be Eru. If Morgoth was the first Vala to enter Arda, and Bombadil was in Arda before Morgoth, then Bombadil cannot be a Vala. Other Maiar besides Sauron could be affected by the One Ring, but Bombadil was not, therefore he is likely not a Maia.

One of the best theories I have ever heard are based on Galdor's statement. Galdor links Bombadil with the "earth", therefore Tom Bombadil is the nature spirit of "wild" Arda, "wild" here referring to any area that is left natural and abandoned or untouched by sentient inhabitants that would alter it (ie. build houses, pollute, etc.); notice that Tom's area of movement is apparently limited to areas uninhabited by the five races. The reason I make that designation is that Galdor also says that Sauron, in a sense, has power over the earth; therefore, if Bombadil was the spirit of all of Arda itself, the condition of the earth wouldn't matter or weaken Bombadil just as long as it existed, but according to Galdor that is not the case. Perhaps Tom Bombadil cannot exist or has no power in places like the Dead Marshes and the Desolation of the Morannon (Black Gate).

Goldberry is also a nature spirit, mentioned as the river's daughter.

edited 10th Apr '13 8:18:34 PM by shiro_okami

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#27: Apr 10th 2013 at 10:09:55 PM

the descriptions of the characters don't really fit with each other
We don't have much of a description of Aule and Yavanna to begin with. We know that Aule is a craftsman and created the dwarves; but it is not necessary at all to assume that he is a dour, "Hephaestus-like" character. And keep in mind that since the Valar abandoned their claim to Middle-Earth, if a Vala wanted to come into it they would presumably have to give up much of their power. Aule could not simply come and smack Sauron and Saruman down as they deserve, even though he is easily powerful enough to do that several hundreds of times over.

Aule and Yavanna have valid reasons to want to be in middle-earth. Not only, as you said, Sauron was once Aule's follower; but the end of the Third Age is also the time during which the Dwarves are starting to reduce in number (to die off completely somewhere during the Fourth Age, I presume). As the creator of the Dwarves, it would be perfectly reasonable of Aule to want to keep an eye on them during these difficult times.

And as for Yavanna... well, she protects all plants and animals, and during the First Age she was one of the most vocal opponents of the "leave the Middle-Earth to Morgoth" plan. And there are Ents in Middle-Earth, who are her creation and who are also going extinct.

He remembers Arda before Morgoth.
Literally speaking, what Tom Bombadil says is that he remembers "the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside". This could be taken to describe not the first arrival of Melkor in Arda, when it was still unformed, but rather his return when he destroyed the Lamps.

therefore Aule would be handling the handiwork of his former pupil, so in a sense he would be even more of a natural master of the One Ring than Sauron himself.
Aule would despise the ring, though. He is a craftsman; but his defining characteristic is his lack of possessiveness — he freely gives his creations as gifts, freely gives and receives advice, and his greatest achievement involved granting (with Eru's help) freedom of thought to his own creations. The ring, a tool designed to give the owner control over other people's creations, would probably strike Aule as a most worthless trinket. And this is consistent with Bombadil's behaviour: whereas everyone else, included powerful Maiar such as Gandalf or Saruman, is terrified and fascinated by the Ring and its potential, Tom Bombadil is just not impressed by it — he examines it for a moment, but quickly decides that it is not worthy of his interest.

edited 10th Apr '13 11:03:22 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#28: Apr 11th 2013 at 2:10:24 PM

[up][up] Hmm... I don't think that we have any hint of Bombadil being present in any way outside of that little patch near the Shire; my impression was that he was limited to that little realm alone. If so, then it seems to me that the "genius loci" explanation seems more likely than the "spirit of Arda" explanation, and fits the same pieces of evidence just as well.

(While that patch of the world may not be the same as it was under the dark before the sun and moon, we don't know that Bombadil hasn't changed since then either.)

edited 11th Apr '13 2:12:03 PM by ArsThaumaturgis

My Games and Asset Packs
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#29: Apr 11th 2013 at 6:32:40 PM

And keep in mind that since the Valar abandoned their claim to Middle-Earth, if a Vala wanted to come into it they would presumably have to give up much of their power. Aule could not simply come and smack Sauron and Saruman down as they deserve, even though he is easily powerful enough to do that several hundreds of times over.

Not true, unless they gave up their claim after Morgoth's defeat. The Valar did come to Middle-Earth in their full power during their first few altercations with Morgoth before the Years of Sun.

my impression was that he was limited to that little realm alone.

True, but its also possible that that limitation is self-imposed rather than forced. Maybe its Goldberry's limitation, and Tom refuses to abandon her.

Related:

  • Essay arguing for Tom Bombadil being Aule.
  • Essay arguing against Tom Bombadil being Aule.
  • Part of the essay above discussing other possibilities for Tom's existence.

edited 11th Apr '13 6:40:37 PM by shiro_okami

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#30: Apr 11th 2013 at 10:29:33 PM

Not true, unless they gave up their claim after Morgoth's defeat. The Valar did come to Middle-Earth in their full power during their first few altercations with Morgoth before the Years of Sun.
I was talking about what happened during the Akallabêth, the fall of Numenor, when the Vala "laid down their government of Arda" and had Eru take Valinor away from the mortal world. In the Third Age, the Vala have no authority on middle earth anymore; that's the reason why all they could do to help defeat Sauron was to send the Istari.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#31: Apr 12th 2013 at 12:06:14 AM

He could be a Maia... but then what's his "real" name? As in "what was his name in the West"?

edited 12th Apr '13 12:07:50 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#32: Apr 12th 2013 at 6:24:17 AM

[up][up] I was under the impression that their relinquishing of authority was only in that particular instance. Also, the text you quotes says "laid down their government of Arda". Arda includes Middle-Earth and Aman/Valinor, so according to your reasoning, the Valar don't rule Valinor anymore, either.

The reason they sent the Istari in humanoid form was because they didn't want a repeat of the continent-destroying War of Wrath.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#33: Apr 12th 2013 at 6:57:06 AM

Hm. Perhaps my interpretation is wrong. But I thought that in that case, Aman was removed from Arda, which was made round. After that, going from middle-earth to Aman was not really just a matter of moving through space, or at least not just that; rather, it involved an "ascension" of sorts, to use religious language (which in this case, I think, is appropriate).

[up][up] If he is a Maia, why was he unaffected by the Ring, when Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf obviously were affected by it?

edited 12th Apr '13 7:34:54 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#34: Apr 12th 2013 at 7:29:12 PM

[up] Maybe he's not affiliated with a Vala like the essay suggests?

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#35: Apr 12th 2013 at 8:50:03 PM

He's Galadriel's ex-boyfriend.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#36: Apr 13th 2013 at 3:53:14 AM

He's Galadriel's ex-boyfriend.

How would you support that theory?

edited 13th Apr '13 3:53:40 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#37: Apr 13th 2013 at 7:23:23 AM

I don't know how to make it any clearer than it already is.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#38: Apr 13th 2013 at 9:36:31 AM

Or he's a very short Ent.

Or (to be slightly less crackpotty, but only slightly) he might be Maglor, the least assholish of the sons of Feanor — we know that he threw his Silmaril in the Sea and did not return to Aman, but kept wandering in Middle-Earth, singing about his loss of the jewel.

He was called "strong-voiced" and "the mighty singer" — and, you know, Bombadil's songs "are stronger songs, and his feet are faster"; and after successfully giving up the Silmaril (yeah, it burned him; but it burned Morgoth too, and still he kept it), the lure of the Ring would be a very small thing to him.

Maybe he settled down in the Old Forest?

edited 13th Apr '13 9:48:08 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#39: Apr 13th 2013 at 11:39:45 AM

I always assumed that he was one of Orome's maia, perhaps the chief among them (given that he is clearly superior to Sauron in his own way), and that Goldberry was a lesser maia attached to Ulmo.

MorwenEdhelwen Aussie Tolkien freak from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2012
Aussie Tolkien freak
#40: Apr 13th 2013 at 4:34:11 PM

[up][up] Now Maglor makes makes more sense than Melian.

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien
Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#41: Apr 13th 2013 at 8:35:45 PM

Still, Maglor is not in any sense "eldest and fatherless", nor was he around before the arrival of Morgoth; and like all Feanorians, he was a grim fellow obsessed with his Oath and with the Silmarils (although perhaps not to the degree of his brothers).

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#42: Apr 14th 2013 at 7:56:07 AM

But I thought that in that case, Aman was removed from Arda, which was made round.

I was mistaken, you actually are right on that point, so its possible that Eru removed Aman from Arda as a direct result of the Valar's abdication. Even so, I still don't think that means they would have completely abandoned Arda, and would have sent a force similar to the one they sent during the War of Wrath again if the situation warranted it. Even if the Valar no longer hold authority over Arda (even before Akallabeth the Valar never ruled Middle-Earth directly), Eru does.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#43: Apr 15th 2013 at 10:44:19 PM

Eru does; but the Valar don't, I think, at least not until the Dagor Dagorath.

Remember the poem about the Istari:

Wilt thou learn the lore
that was long secret
of the Five that came
from a far country?

One only returned.
Others never again
under Men's dominion
Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath
and the Doom cometh.

edited 15th Apr '13 10:47:17 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#44: Apr 16th 2013 at 8:09:32 AM

And now you've got me thinking of what happened to the Ithryn Luin...

Damnit

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#45: Apr 16th 2013 at 8:22:50 AM

I dunno. But on the topic of the Five Wizards, I really like Aaron Diaz's drawing of them.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
latenight Since: Aug, 2010
#46: Apr 17th 2013 at 2:40:26 PM

Speaking of the wizards I find this picture of a younger Saruman, Gandalf, and Radgast interesting since it was based on how their actors looked when they were younger.

Also Tom Bombadil is the Master.

shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#47: Apr 17th 2013 at 4:25:57 PM

One only returned.

Gandalf returned and Saruman died, but what happened to the other three?

Yuanchosaan antic disposition from Australia Since: Jan, 2010
antic disposition
#48: Apr 17th 2013 at 4:39:25 PM

Alatar and Pallando went to the East long ago. We know very little about them.

edited 17th Apr '13 4:40:24 PM by Yuanchosaan

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#49: Apr 17th 2013 at 4:53:36 PM

[up] Yeah, I know that. But did they and Radagast ever go back West again?

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#50: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:24:52 PM

[up]Apparently not. According to Tolkien's letters, all the Wizards except for Gandalf "failed" in their own ways, and to varying degrees. JRRT speculated that more than one destructive Eastern cult might be attributable to the Blue Wizards, and Radagast apparently allowed his love of the local fauna to overrule any other responsibilities he might once have been charged with. What little info we have suggests that they were subsumed into their mis-chosen projects on Middle Earth, and diminished along with much else of their kind.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:23:43 AM by Jhimmibhob


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