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Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.

Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.

Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:

  • This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
  • Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
  • There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.

edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#21301: Mar 4th 2023 at 1:54:11 AM

The difference is that Salamanders tend to stick to one agreed design way more than dragons. tongue

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21302: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:42:33 AM

The difference is that dragons are way cooler.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#21303: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:52:28 AM

Yup. We all have Sleeping Beauty to thank for showing us how cool dragons can be. cool[tup][awesome] Until I found out about Bahamut, that is. tongue[awesome]

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#21304: Mar 6th 2023 at 11:55:48 AM

I saw a peacock walking around the Brookfield Zoo, because of course they are. tongue But anyway, I remember reading that it’s thanks to the god Indra that peacocks became so beautiful. :)

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#21305: Mar 6th 2023 at 1:24:41 PM

I remember reading, it's thanks to the God Hermes that peacocks got those eye feathers(well that, a maiden turned cow and Hera)tongue

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Mar 6th 2023 at 1:25:26 AM

Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#21306: Mar 6th 2023 at 1:36:47 PM

And that maiden turned cow later became a queen of Egypt, so it all worked out. tongue

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#21307: Mar 6th 2023 at 1:37:41 PM

Isn't the Indra episode that gave the peacock its eyes very Zeus-y? [lol]

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#21308: Mar 9th 2023 at 9:03:40 AM

There was aa really old thread that talked about Hell. I know of things are said but few are actually true. What is Hell as it was described in the Bible? And what was changed and what was accurate?

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21309: Mar 9th 2023 at 11:38:10 AM

In the translation I had, (Not English) the closest thing is a passage in the book of Matthew, talking about a place called Gehenna when you will get destroyed by fire for your sin.

Gehenna though, appears to have been a real place, outside Jerusalem. A sort of garbage disposal site, when you burn things, so there was always a cloud of black smock there.

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#21310: Mar 9th 2023 at 1:19:38 PM

In the OT, the word used is Sheol which basically just means grave in Hebrew. There really wasn't a concept of hell as a place of torment or punishment in the OT. Hell as it exists in popular culture is mostly a post-Christianity phenomenon.

Troper1138 Since: Dec, 2010
#21311: Mar 9th 2023 at 1:41:23 PM

There are a number of New Testament passages that give rise to the longstanding conception of Hell as a place of "fire and brimstone" (brimstone being an old word for sulfur). (All of this is pretty much exclusive to the New Testament. Christians have often interpreted some passages in the Old Testament as referring to notions of eternal fiery damnation, but I'm not aware of any passage in anyplace from Genesis to Malachi that unambiguously makes any reference to any kind of fiery judgmental afterlife.) A phrase that crops up in several of the Gospels is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (or "wailing and gnashing of teeth"). In a number of places this phrase is associated with "the outer darkness" (e.g., Matthew 8:12) but in the 13th chapter of Matthew this phrase twice gets associated with the imagery of people being thrown into a "blazing furnace" (at verses 42 and 50):

They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
One of the major Bible passages that seems to describe "hellfire" is Luke 16:19-31, the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus. After the hard-hearted rich man dies, he winds up in "Hades":
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
This entire story is generally classified as a parable, and there are various things about this story that make it difficult to envision as any kind of literal description of actually existing physical places (Heaven or Paradise on the one hand, and Hades or Hell on the other). On the one hand, you have "a great chasm" between "Hades" and "Abraham's side"; but on the other hand, the rich man (in Hades) and Abraham can have a conversation? (Maybe there's some kind of Video Phone set up between Heaven and Hell?)

Trying to interpret the Book of Revelation is always tricky, but it's here that we get the idea of Hell as featuring "burning sulfur" (or "brimstone" in older translations). In Revelation 14:9-11 we have a description of those who have worshiped "the beast" as being condemned to a "fire and brimstone" version of Hell:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
In Revelation 20:10, the fire-and-brimstone Hell is the punishment for the Devil himself (along with "the beast" and "the false prophet"):
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(Note there is no notion here of the Devil as "reigning in Hell", which is pretty much Bible fanfiction from John Milton.) Revelation 21:8 refers to various sinners being "consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur" as "the second death", and earlier in the book, at Revelation 20:14, it says that death and Hades are to thrown into "the lake of fire" which is "the second death". So..."death" will be thrown into a "lake of fire" and...burned up? (The second death?) These oddities have led various people over the centuries to propose that the "lake of fire" burns people up ("annihilationism") rather than torturing them for all eternity...but then, you've got those references to "no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image" and at least for the Devil himself, "tormented day and night for ever and ever". (The Greek that's being translated at various points as "for ever and ever" could also be translated as "for ages and ages", if that clarifies anything.) I mean, that's the Book of Revelation for you, though.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#21313: Mar 9th 2023 at 10:21:28 PM

The idea of Satan and/or Lucifer being this great enemy to God isn’t actually supported in the Bible. In Job, Satan just wanders into Heaven and makes a bet with God with relatively minor stakes and elsewhere, any reference to Satan is probably not referring to any specific entity.

Jesus’ “get behind me Satan” is probably supposed to be more like “get behind me, my enemy” since Satan just means adversary and that was a place where you’d use that word in colloquial speech. Even in Revelation, there’s a few different things that could be Satan and/or Lucifer but that are probably just supposed to be purely metaphorical.

Judaism basically lacks any concept of a serious afterlife and it doesn’t really contain the idea of a great adversary. It’s probably why Jewish missionaries aren’t really a thing, because there’s not really a salvation concept in the way there is in Christianity. Why bother aggressively trying to convert people if it’s not relevant to your beliefs?

The Christian stuff about hell and Satan and all that mirrors Zoroastrianism a lot more than anything where Ahura Mazda and Ahriman are almost equal opposites, but Ahriman is destined to fall. Interestingly, Zoroastrianism was never super big on conversions either because it has this element of universal salvation. Doesn’t matter how bad you were in Zoroastrianism, you get to go through the river of molten metal and have all of the Ahriman-induced corruption burned away before you get to enter the paradise after the end of the world.

Edited by Zendervai on Mar 9th 2023 at 1:22:50 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#21314: Mar 10th 2023 at 12:20:32 AM

Of all things, Marvel Comics has a more true to the the text take on Satan.

Satan in Marvel comics isn't an actual devil. Marvel comics has a Hell that is populated by devils, but Satan isn't one of them. There is a throne in Hell that is called Satan's Throne, but it's empty. It's basically a symbol of rulership that none of the devils dare to claim for themselves for fear of the others ganging up on them.

At least one devil in Marvel comics, Marduk Kurios, pretends to be Satan to increase his own cred. He basically exploits humanity's belief in a singular great Adversary to make himself seem scarier.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#21315: Mar 22nd 2023 at 4:29:59 PM

Hey, everybody. The Histocrat just posted a video about Beowulf.

Thanks to it, I found out that the story of Beowulf has had some influence on The Lord of the Rings.

Edited by Demetrios on Mar 22nd 2023 at 6:31:53 AM

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21316: Mar 23rd 2023 at 8:54:34 AM

Link?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21317: Mar 23rd 2023 at 8:56:57 AM

[up]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtRHlfe6MHk

Edited by jawal on Mar 23rd 2023 at 4:27:22 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21319: Mar 23rd 2023 at 9:15:26 AM

You can post the video directly with the Youtube tag (see "Show Markup Help" below the text box), like so:

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21320: Mar 23rd 2023 at 9:29:37 AM

[up]

I try to put: youtube:video_gtRHlfe6MHk between [[ ]].

But it give me a video that I can't read.

Like this:

Edited by jawal on Mar 23rd 2023 at 4:48:10 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21321: Mar 23rd 2023 at 9:43:33 AM

You need to replace "video_id", not just "id".

Edited by Redmess on Mar 23rd 2023 at 5:45:16 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21322: Mar 23rd 2023 at 9:48:40 AM

Oh right.

Thank you [tup]

Edited by jawal on Mar 23rd 2023 at 4:48:57 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21323: Mar 23rd 2023 at 3:54:39 PM

We were discussing whether Sauron is a fascist/racist in the Tolkien thread, and I felt that that is a bit of an odd question, since Sauron doesn't really favour any race over any other (he is, if anything, a Sauron-supremacist, as someone put it), and that got me wondering: since Sauron is basically an expy of the devil, wouldn't that be like asking whether Satan is a racist?

And that may be an interesting question in itself: is Satan a racist?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#21324: Mar 23rd 2023 at 4:11:23 PM

Assuming a largely modern Orthodox Christian interpretation (IE Satan as God's nemesis):

It's not explicitly stated, but it's plausible. Satan doesn't actually appear that often in the Bible, which means his views aren't very clear.

It's not hard to argue God is opposed to racism (the Bible speaks out against it a few times). Ergo it's plausible Satan supports it.

Leviticus 19:34
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21325: Mar 23rd 2023 at 4:21:26 PM

But supporting racism isn't the same as being one, here. After all, Satan is not human, and stands outside humanity, and thus has no reason to favour any particular race. It could also be argued that Satan simply supports racism as a means to sow division, without favouring any particular side.

You could similarly argue that God opposes racism without being of any race, so not from the position of any minority or majority, but from an outside position.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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