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Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.

Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.

Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:

  • This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
  • Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
  • There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.

edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada

Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#21276: Feb 27th 2023 at 8:17:58 PM

I'm not saying it's necessarily good. I'm just saying that in and of itself I can't actually see why it's particularly bad in isolation.

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21277: Feb 27th 2023 at 8:37:05 PM

For a society to function, members need to cooperate.

For effective cooperation, members need to understand and trust each other.

Someone who say one thing while knowing it to be false for his/her own good, or pretend to be on your side but jump ship at the first opportunity, is threatening society more than an external enemy.

As a result, people hate hypocrites.

Edited by jawal on Feb 27th 2023 at 5:43:12 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#21278: Feb 27th 2023 at 10:34:50 PM

Neither of those things are hypocrisy though. The first is just lying and the second is just treason/betrayal.

Hypocrisy doesn't involve lying necessarily, you aren't lying, for example, if you say "I think x is bad and people shouldn't do it" then do x yourself.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#21279: Feb 27th 2023 at 10:48:36 PM

Generally the problem with criticizing hypocrisy is that it's often done to criticize the preaching rather than the practice.

Leviticus 19:34
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21280: Feb 28th 2023 at 2:53:54 AM

Right, hypocrisy is acting (or not acting) in a way contradictory to your own claims. So expecting someone else to go to church every Sunday while not doing so yourself would also be hypocrisy.

I think it also involves a moral claim, though. So if I expect a Christian to go to church every Sunday because that's what a good Christian is supposed to do, but don't go myself because I'm not a Christian, that's not hypocrisy.

Edited by Redmess on Feb 28th 2023 at 11:55:57 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Smeagol17 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21281: Feb 28th 2023 at 3:22:16 AM

“Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.” -Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#21282: Feb 28th 2023 at 4:07:53 AM

Hypocrite Has a Point is a thing for a reason.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Troper1138 Since: Dec, 2010
#21283: Feb 28th 2023 at 7:26:12 AM

[up][up][up][up]

Generally the problem with criticizing hypocrisy is that it's often done to criticize the preaching rather than the practice.
That's very situational, though. Suppose we have a "family values" crusader who is secretly gay (and not celibate, either). In that case we should criticize the preaching. The practice (as long as it involves other consenting adults) isn't actually a problem.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21284: Feb 28th 2023 at 7:31:41 AM

Indeed, when people preach against a (perceived) sin but practice it themselves, you can definitely criticize the preaching.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21285: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:02:13 AM

"There's something truly awesome about how one of the groups Jesus rages against the most are religious hypocrites like the Pharisees."

Because comparisons are often made between the ancient Pharasees and contemporary Evangelists (who share certain behaviors in common).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#21286: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:13:45 AM

It's probably best to avoid calling someone a Pharisee when you want to call them a hypocrite though.

The Pharisee movement is the direct ancestor to modern Rabbinical Judaism and at the time, they spent a lot of effort delegitimizing every messiah figure they were aware of (because there were a hell of a lot of people claiming to be the messiah) because 1) the messiahs were all demanding huge changes to Jewish belief and traditions and 2) they really didn't want Rome paying close attention to the Jewish religion and trying to force syncretization on it again.

The Sadducees, the other major sect at the time, were in favour of moving closer to the Roman style of things, but they were wiped out when the Temple was destroyed. (The Essenes were cloistered off on their own)

The Pharisees actually had pretty logical and reasonable ways to behave in the context of the time and it's not great to just stamp them with the "Hypocrite" label, especially since they're the reason Jewish traditions survived Rome flattening Israel at all.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21287: Feb 28th 2023 at 8:16:36 AM

I'm not endorsing it, just pointing out a possible reason for their comment. I would avoid calling Evangelists hypocrites (at least, without further justification) for similar reasons.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#21288: Feb 28th 2023 at 11:17:01 AM

The thing about hypocrisy is, it's not just failure to practice what you preach. EVERYBODY does that! We think all sorts of things are wrong and say they're wrong, even though we occasionally do them. That doesn't disqualify us from calling them wrong, it just means we're ordinary fallible humans who wish we could consistently (or even usually) be as good as our ideals.

Hypocrisy is not even believing in what you preach. It's not preaching something I suck at living up to—it's preaching something I think is untrue but that makes me look good, gives me power, or keeps the rubes in line. And that's both a more serious charge, and a tougher one to just infer about someone whose moral claims I don't necessarily like.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#21289: Feb 28th 2023 at 11:40:24 AM

I just want to mention about the "jewels before dogs" passage mentioned last page, the common interpretation of that is that Jesus was testing her faith or using her belief as a lesson to the others around him because it's contrary to the many other tales of Jesus openly and willingly befriending and helping the outcasts of society (like women, prostitutes, lepers, the possessed, tax collectors, Romans, and Samaritans).

Related to women's issues, similar to how Islamic rules towards women were progressive for their time, the Old Testament rules about women were also similarly progressive for their time. The laws about having to marry a woman that you had sex with, for example, was a rule meant to make sure that women would have at least some form of financial safety and compensation, since non-virgins were often deemed to be Defiled Forever. The laws about marrying your brother's widow were similarly made to make sure widows weren't left destitute and abandoned by society. Women being ritually impure when they menstruated meant in practice that women got to go hang out together in a communal tent for a few days/a week and get a break from childrearing and their families when they were likely in a great deal of pain.

While the Israelites were pretty insular and bloodline was a big deal, they still had fair treatment for some converts. A prostitute helps save Joshua's spies in Jericho, and in turn God spares her from the city's destruction (her house remained unscathed when the walls fell) and she presumably joined the Israelites since the rest of Jericho was wiped out.

The Book of Ruth is a book about familial love transcending nationality, and accepting a convert into the Israelite community. Notably, Ruth's bloodline begets David and eventually Jesus himself.

Related to our current topic, there's speculation/theories that Jesus himself might have identified as a Pharisee at some point in his life or that at least the people writing down his teachings were part of the Pharisees, and Jesus' harsh criticism of them was coming from a place of frustration in their unwillingness to change.

Edited by PhiSat on Feb 28th 2023 at 1:04:05 PM

Oissu!
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21290: Feb 28th 2023 at 12:07:12 PM

The story as it is written does not support the interpretation of it being a Secret Test of Character. Neither it is the first time Jesus lost his temper against people, animals or in a notable case a Fig tree that he cursed because it did not lay figs when it requested, despite it not being the right season.

However, I am not a professor in the subject, and I did not read the bible in its original language (Nor in English) so I may be missing subtle shades of meaning.

Edited by jawal on Feb 28th 2023 at 9:14:45 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Gaiazun Since: Jul, 2020
#21291: Feb 28th 2023 at 1:44:21 PM

[up][up] Its also theorised that Jesus was mentored by John the Baptist who may have been an Essene.

I always liked metaphor of hypocrisy that Jesus gave. If there is a plank of wood in your eye how can you see well enough to remove a speck of sawdust from someone else's?

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#21292: Feb 28th 2023 at 1:59:27 PM

[up] With the other eye?.

Another good one against hypocrisy is "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her".

Edited by jawal on Feb 28th 2023 at 11:06:55 AM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Gaiazun Since: Jul, 2020
#21293: Feb 28th 2023 at 2:23:25 PM

I wouldn't trust someone without depth perception to put their finger near my eye

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#21294: Feb 28th 2023 at 4:44:45 PM

[up][up]And he saved a life with that one.

Oissu!
Demetrios Lucky Seven from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Lucky Seven
#21295: Mar 3rd 2023 at 9:50:17 PM

What is the difference between dragons and salamanders?

Come on! Let's bless them all until we get fershnickered!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#21296: Mar 3rd 2023 at 10:05:10 PM

Salamanders are associated with fire because they slept in logs used for firewood and awoke when the wood was lit, seemingly born from fire, but it was said to be so cold it puts out fire on contact, but nothing related to making fire, just fire immunity.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#21297: Mar 3rd 2023 at 10:18:09 PM

Also not all dragons breath fire in general.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#21299: Mar 4th 2023 at 12:02:14 AM

The mythical salamanders don't fly, normally. (though obviously as with all mythical creatures there's a ton of exceptions that can be pointed to probably.)

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#21300: Mar 4th 2023 at 1:02:00 AM

They also have connections to worms and snakes.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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