Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
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edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
vicarious
Basically the dissonance between ancient Greek values and ours
Paris never went mano a mano against Akhilles; he had to have the shot guided by Apollo in what was basically a shot to the back.
You're thinking about him against Menelaus, who wrecked his shit. From what I remember of the Iliad and Odyssey was that Menelaus was generally a honorable dude who was devoted to Helen. Agamemnon back then was still seen as power hungry.
In truth, the only character from Greek myth that can be said to be just as much of a hero today as he was back then is Perseus.
He's also one of the few to have a happy ending, so I wonder if in one dark corner of their minds, greek authors weren't actually aware just how fucked up several aspects of their culture were.
A second candidate would be Herakles, and while generally agreed to be a chill dude, he had plenty of less than pleasant moments.
Deranged X-Mas Figure
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Which is not much of one at all. From what I remember he was a fucking sociopath.
Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around
vicarious
Maybe you're thinking of Theseus?
Deranged X-Mas Figure
Maybe? It's been a long time since I read the myth. Or Theseus's for that matter.
x3 Not really? His entire quest to slay the Medusa was a way to help his mother, he gave the kingdom back to its former rightful ruler, and his romance with Andromeda was a pretty straightforward case of Rescue Romance.
The worst thing he did was turning the evil king's court into stone, and frankly they had it coming.
Oh, if you mean Theseus, then yeah, he was a stupid arsehole.
Edited by HailMuffins on Mar 6th 2019 at 12:07:18 PM
Who Am I?
To understand Greek myths you have to pretty much abandon modern cultural attitudes, and try to comprehend a belief system in which individual agency is not considered important. In a universe dictated by the whim of the Gods, who represent the random forces of nature that dominate human life, the individual is judged by what they are, not by what they do. Character is destiny, and the concept of personal agency hasn't been invented yet. Achilles was considered a hero and Helen was a slut, not because of their intentions or motivations, which are irrelevant, but because of the role that they ended up playing in world affairs. "Hero" is something that you are, not something you achieve.
A lot of this came from Roman era playwrights, who recorded ancient myths as dramatically interesting stories, and not because they actually believed in any of this. It was a literary device, and to what extent the ancient Greek or Roman ordinary folk shared these philosophical conventions is probably unknowable now.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Regarding Helen, if I recall correctly, there was some later story where she and Menelaus show up again. They were Happily Married, so I guess at least nobody actually blamed her for the whole Troy business.
Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
I used to believe the above but I think Greek heroes turn out to be a lot more similar to what we think of heroism today. It's just that it's not really a particularly sanitized view of heroism. Achilles is a hero because he's our guy and he kills the people who are those guys.
About the only thing the Greeks do better than modern times is the heroes flaws are considered features not bugs.
I always found it vaguely heartwarming that the tale of Medea, where she's a murderous witch who kills her brothers, was often commented on by Greeks who thought she was the victim. Draco in Leather Pants existing even then.
I'm pretty sure that The Illiad made it so she was Brainwashed and Crazy by Aphrodite or outright forced to do it by her as a way to explain to audiences why Meneleus would want her back. World's Most Beautiful Woman or Demigod aside.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 6th 2019 at 11:50:24 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Oh, bother.
The original level of consent was ambiguous even in the original story.
Regardless, there's another issue at play here: Sacred Hospitality. Paris violated it when he ran off with his host's wife. That's kind of a big deal in Greek culture. The violation of xenia demanded retaliation.
It's for a similar reason that Odysseus slaughtered the suitors when he returned home. They had been abusing hospitality the entire time they were courting Penelope. The Greek gods don't take kindly to violations of xenia — their go-to response when it came to violators was "Kill Em All". And in the cases of particularly gross violators, they don't just get killed — their afterlives are also suitably horrific. Just ask Ixion and Tantalus.
Edited by M84 on Mar 8th 2019 at 4:00:00 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Matrilineal forms of decent and social structures also died a death (they had been declining before, but the Collapse really did for them).
There was the occasional promotion though. Besides Ishtar/Astarte travelling far and wide, there was Athena. I may have misremembered some facts before but I double checked and she is recorded in extant Linear B sources, just not among the main gods. She seems to have been member of a class of city-patron goddesses that were common in Mycenaean Greece. Mycenea itself had one called Mycena (or Mykena) for example. It's just in the upheaval of the Greek Dark Ages she seems to have had a major promotion or two.
Though that fact does seem to back up Classical Athenian claims about the antiquity and continuity of Athens, even if they admit they weren't major players that far back.
Edited by KnightofLsama on Mar 7th 2019 at 9:26:20 PM
Who Am I?
The idea of "consent" doesnt make much sense if you dont even believe in freewill.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
ππ©π―ππ°π
π‘π
It's kinda funny how old time Greek mythology totally admitted that they got most of their uh, knowledge? from the Phoenicians and Egyptians.
Actually "mythology" being somewhat "valid" as a history source feels really nice when it happens? That Troy episode? Someone send a strongly worded letter about it once! Maybe!
Secret Signature
If I'm not mistaken, the myths were somewhat treated as a history source.
Myths are oral tradition. Those long lists of Greek ships in Iliad and who were commanding them; those numerous named characters whose only role was to be gruesomely killed in the field of battle were there because someone in the audience claimed that they were descended from those characters. Myths are Ancient Greece's "Granddad, tell us what did you do at the War?" kind of stories.
Spiral out, keep going.
Art tells us a lot about what a certain society liked, its values and morals and customs.
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
Itβs funny, the Greeks at one point treated the myths as history, but later on there was evidence that they saw the myths the way many Christians see the Bible: as figurative and symbolic tales about morality and how to live oneβs life.
They still believed in the gods, but stopped believing in the more fantastical elements of the stories. And the Romans from the beginning took the myths as stories rather than historical fact. Romans were much more practical-minded from the jump though.
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Who Am I?
And most of version of the myths we now have came from those Roman agnostics.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Who Am I?
And most of version of the myths we now have came from those Roman agnostics. So you kinda have to take some of the more extreme elements with a grain of salt.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
That's not entirely accurate. It's more accurate to say that the Greeks at some point started to mythologise their history (by injecting gods and elements from existing myths into it) and then went back to not doing that.
Edited by Robrecht on Mar 7th 2019 at 1:52:34 PM
Angry gets shit done.
For example between the archaeological evidence at the city itself and some of the extant Hittite sources (including cognate-names for people mentioned in the story) it's pretty clear that the Illiad at least was based on some actual event, the details of which are now more or less lost to us.
Well the first act of archaeology was finding the historical Troy.
And the second act of archaeology was accidentally blowing it up with dynamite.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Mar 8th 2019 at 9:16:26 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Are you making that up? 'Cause it sounds like you're making that up.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
He's not.
Angry gets shit done.
Yeah, Paris is pretty much the catalyst for the entire conflict, though granted there is...a bit of sympathy in that he's definitely thrust into the hot seat through no fault of his own, all of a sudden, and no matter who he chose, the other goddesses were going to be waiting in the wings to uniquely screw him (and anyone else close to him by association, as they tend to do) over.
Granted, his forcing Helen to fall in love with him via Aphrodite is really...awkward through a modern lens now that consent is something that we recognize as important. Plus his refusing to give Helen back is what collapses his entire city...though it's funny that most of the blame gets put square on Helen, because she was pretty much magically compelled into the situation. She's the unsung victim, and for years would be known as nothing but that harlot that fucked over the Trojans. Oof.
Achilles under a modern lens most definitely comes off as egotistical and petty in most ways. To the Greeks, Agamemnon besmirching his honor and refusing to give him his plunder is a huge fucking deal. Enough that his ragequitting the Greeks until they make it up to him is completely justified.
Now, throwing a hissy fit over not getting a concubine he wanted and thus risking his side's entire position in the war comes off as wangst and not much else. The modern reader just wants him to get his ass back to the fight and stop whining already, since he knows full well that they can't win without him. I like to think of Achilles as profoundly tortured, even if a lot of it just comes off as eye-rolling or comedic to a modern reader.
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.