Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:
- This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
- Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
- There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.
edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
Pretty much which go back to the dismisal of death.
When I said this I will said that in cosmological terms christianity really throw the concept of death into a whack, christianity really preach a form of inmortality(so to speak), which i guess was part of the appeling to pagans
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Who Am I?
They were far from the only ones, or the first ones, to do that.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
It's a bird.
Well, immortality as a divine reward or otherwise something to strive for isn't a new thing, but the Abrahamic faiths sort of have this underlying idea of death as something inherently wrong and unnatural that only exists because of our sins or whatever. (I.e. the whole "getting kicked out of Eden" thing) They might not have been the first ones to do that either, but still.
Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
You say this, but the Bible also doesn't mention bacteria, something that the big guy who supposedly divinely inspired it would know about but the people who actually wrote it certainly didn't.
And if you think that doesn't have theological implications, you've never taken a good look at how the Bible treats disease. People nowadays gloss over this aspect of the Bible, because we now know what really causes most diseases.
If you believe the Bible it's very explicitly stated that getting sick is definitely a sign of God's displeasure at the way you're leading your life and getting better after getting sick is a sign that you've properly corrected your mistake and God has forgiven you.
Which means that God was very displeased with people in general right up until the point where we discovered the basic rules of hygiene and the causes of contagious disease and learned to take precautionary measures, at which point God conveniently decided that he was no longer displeased with many things and got a lot more forgiving.
And yet the massive theological implications of this are hardly ever examined in any amount of detail.
Angry gets shit done.
Probably because it has no implications anymore. Society marches on, so we can keep the physical and metaphysical separate.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
And fundamentalists who claim that Bible should be interpreted literally are a minority outside of Bible Belt at least and honestly they are often hypocritical anyway 
Who Am I?
"the Abrahamic faiths sort of have this underlying idea of death as something inherently wrong and unnatural that only exists because of our sins or whatever. (I.e. the whole "getting kicked out of Eden" thing) They might not have been the first ones to do that either, but still."
I think it was the Gnostics who technically did that first, but it was the Christians who popularized it.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Weirdly, this is not actually an interpretation of Christianity. Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. The Bible is clear Adam and Eve are not immortal prior to or after the Garden. They are denied the fruit of immortality.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:28:55 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Maybe ut they did by nterpretation of text which can lend to that idea.
In general cristianity have this separation of words: the profane or natural world is flawed thanks to us and is full of evil and heaven which good and perfect, is easy ti jump to the idea the world isnt worth shit and heaven is.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
This was precisely the argument of Job's would-be comforters. Their fate suggests that something more complicated is going on in the OT.
It would be easier to list the world religions, or indeed the historic philosophical systems, that don't implicitly act this way to one degree or another. To intuit that the world is a messed-up place, and to wonder if there isn't some better existence that maybe we were ordered towards ... well, a man's only ever had to go outside and walk around a bit to feel that way.
Edited by Jhimmibhob on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:41:27 AM
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
@Robrecht: I would actually argue the exact opposite. The Bible definitely has instances of people who are sick and it's stated this to be through no fault of their own. There's Job, and also a few instances with various people Jesus meets. For example, Jesus sees a blind person and explicitly states his blindness is not the result of any sin committed by him or anyone else. If anything the Bible mocks people for thinking that way.
Mind you, God does use disease a punishment sometimes, and somethings are sinful because they tend to cause disease. However, that does not mean all disease is divine punishment.
Edited by Protagonist506 on Dec 20th 2018 at 8:53:19 AM
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
It does seem a tad odd to suggest Christianity has a hatred for death when the entire religion spins around the concept of martyrdom, with its chief prophet being a guy most famous for dying (quite horrifyingly) in a heroic manner to inspire his followers to do the same, and most denominations (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) have a veritable army of thousands of Saints that died as martyrs and are venerated for it.
Edited by Gaon on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:01:41 AM
"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Who Am I?
In the Gospels, anyway, its more the result of demonic possession.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
What value is not much dead but sacrifice, to give everythig for what they know is right, if anything it show more a disregard of death since it value the acton and ensure the other life wil be better for it.
Also we cant forget jesus return bad from the dead and in doing so it confirm he was for realz the true son of god.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
But martyrdom is not real death. It is only the door to the heavenly life, a life much greater and fuller than this shoddy mortal coil. The soul is immortal. What people call death is only a passage to everlasting life. Only the unbelievers think that this passage is the end of your existence. But death is only an illusion, because it's not real death.
Let's just say and leave it at that.
Who Am I?
Nearly every belief system I ever heard of has an afterlife of some kind.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Maybe but and afterlife is not enought, look the egyptian who did place a HUGE importance of death, from how to afrond it, to the propell spell to monuments, life and death mixed A lot in ancient egyptian culture.
Christianity? very diferent, death is more a inconvience and life sirve to serve god, christianity dosent really care that much about death.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Who Am I?
Oh, I agree. Like you said yourself, in the Gnostic/Christian worldview, the natural world is flawed and evil, and the path to redemption is to transcend it, and death is no barrier to that for the righteous. But its not so much that death is unimportant, its more of a test, a tough one, but one that can be passed with the right amount of faith.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Like reflections in the glass!
I'm been devouring a slight interest in the Titanomachy and so I have a few questions.
- Among the two factions (The Titans and Olympians), who had a role in the war and who stayed out of it?
- Related, which of the Titans betrayed their faction and fought for Zeus?
- What other groups were involved besides the aforementioned factions of Gods and Hecatoncheres and Cyclops?
- And finally, How much of that war did Hercules screwed up?
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:35:08 AM
Who Am I?
NVM
Edited by DeMarquis on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:53:57 AM
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
What do you guys think about the idea of Hell's hierarchy being based around whoever's the most powerful demon at the moment? And that whoever overthrows the current ruler becomes the Devil? Does it have any basis in theology?
Edited by superboy313 on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:14:15 AM
Its kinda questionable whether "theology" has any implication of Hell having a hierarchy in first place
Like, which version of "theology" we are talking about and which time period?
@superboy313:
The notion that demons run Hell is itself Word of Dante to a degree. Hell in most forms of Christianity IIRC is run by God-it's a place of eternal torment, but it's a divine punishment.
In other words, it's a place demons actively try to avoid.
Edited by Protagonist506 on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:38:40 AM
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Note that demons don't run hell in Dante's Inferno. They're prisoners as well.
Demons and Archdevils are a result of magical systems as I understand it. Occultism as opposed to religion.
(Which is I suppose the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters)
John Milton may be the actual origin of it in popular culture.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 20th 2018 at 10:58:06 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Edited by Euodiachloris on Dec 19th 2018 at 2:03:31 PM