TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Go To

Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.

Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.

Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:

  • This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
  • Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
  • There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.

edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12126: Nov 10th 2015 at 12:05:52 PM

Yeah, the "Bible Stories for Kids" bowdlerization thing is kind of a mixed bag for me. It comes from a natural paradox of being (in my view) something children need to be taught while also being (ironically) too disturbing for the Moral Guardians. I kind of see where they're coming from, but I think bowlderizing the Bible causes children to develop incorrect views later in life (thinking of it as an idealistic children's book, for example).

I myself generally lean in favor of leaving it mostly uncensored for children (maybe glossing over some of the more disturbing details. For example saying "Jesus was painfully executed", rather than describing the execution in full detail). But then again, I'm not really a moral guardian either and I probably wouldn't go very far to shelter my hypothetical children from violent media anyways (and partially because of the Bible-clearly if the Bible isn't too much for children, then neither is anything similarly disturbing).

edited 10th Nov '15 12:08:45 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12127: Nov 10th 2015 at 1:35:23 PM

[up]They can't avoid The Stations of the Canon and the Bleeding Jesuses, they're in every church and every parade!

At least the Catholic ones.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#12128: Nov 10th 2015 at 1:57:45 PM

Speaking of which- did you guys every have to sit through the Stations of the Cross? Every year at my Catholic school, they made all the students do it. Are we supposed to feel guilty? I just never understood the mourning and lamenting when everyone knows how the story ends.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12129: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:10:30 PM

Rite.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12130: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:23:55 PM

Why don't we just tell kids bible stories about Jesus being nice to people? Saying that love of money is the root of all evil, that you shouldn't judge people, that you should love others, that you should pay your taxes, that you should be understanding and accepting of those who are different as they are probably good people even if they're from another land, that those society rejects and shuns should be shown kindness and love, that violence is not the answer (unless someone is using the Church to make themselves money).

Those are all pretty kid friendly stories are they not?

Man I should totally do a mash up of quotes by Jesus and by someone called a crazy left winger, it would be funny as shit.

edited 10th Nov '15 2:25:30 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#12132: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:30:11 PM

That one opening his robe...

Toga? Tunic? What is that.

edited 10th Nov '15 2:30:35 PM by Keybreak

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
Keybreak (Long Runner)
#12134: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:32:06 PM

Why do you think? They get to rape the man's daughters.

You gotta believe me when I scare you away, all that I wish for is that you would stay
KnitTie Since: Mar, 2015
#12135: Nov 10th 2015 at 2:38:31 PM

Hello everybody, I'm coming from, the Middle East thread with a question about Islam: what's the whole Caliphate thing about?

I mean, first there are the whacked-out wahhabis from Al-Quaeda who are saying that it's the holy duty of every Muslim to build a proper Caliphate, then there are the Daeshi fanatics who are running around slaughtering people on camera saying pretty much the same except with the addendum that all other Muslims who want to build a Caliphate are filthy heretics, then there are the goons from the Caucasus Emirate back in Chechnya who used the notion of building a Caliphate to justify building what was mostly a clan-based criminal syndicate masquerading as a state after the first war and who are now using the same rhetoric to justify ruining the lives of pretty much everybody else in the region by scaring potential investors and tourists away, and then there are the actual sane Muslims who keep insisting that Islam is the religion of peace. I'd really like to know what they say about Caliphates and Jihads in general and what is their stance on the distinction between the Greater Jihad and the Lesser Jihad.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12136: Nov 10th 2015 at 5:10:48 PM

@Xopher001

I'm not Catholic (I follow a denomination which I created), but at a Baptist church I used to go to I went to, I think I did something similar (if I'm understanding the catholic rite correctly). We went around in church and learned about the exact events that occurred during his execution.

Leviticus 19:34
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12137: Nov 10th 2015 at 10:38:35 PM

@Silasw

Because the world is a nasty place. They might wake up getting sold for 30 pieces of silver. Teach them to make the root of all evil work for them.

edited 10th Nov '15 10:39:33 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12138: Nov 10th 2015 at 11:31:06 PM

@Silasw: Well, with Christianity you do have to talk about Jesus's sacrifice-it's the whole point of the New Testament.

edited 10th Nov '15 11:32:06 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12139: Nov 11th 2015 at 2:46:57 AM

When Odin sacrificed an eye for wisdom, it didn't grow back three days later.

Just saying.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12140: Nov 11th 2015 at 2:52:01 AM

[up]

I have a distinct feeling that he could have healed it, but a deal is a deal.

edited 11th Nov '15 3:41:35 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12141: Nov 11th 2015 at 2:54:02 AM

Exactly. The sacrifice was the whole point. Undoing it would have made the trade null and void.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#12142: Nov 11th 2015 at 3:34:19 AM

Yeah. That does kind of confuse me - what exactly did Jesus sacrifice? If Jesus takes on the burden of all Christians' sins, why is He not eternally damned and suffering in Hell?

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12143: Nov 11th 2015 at 3:44:19 AM

[up]

He took them on willingly, for the sake of all. He has committed nothing that would warrant hell. The sheer magnitude of that self-sacrifice, of the Son of God, makes up for the collective sins of humanity. His virtue trumps all our sins.

And "hell" is a vague concept at best. Maybe his punishment is to see the same mistakes happen over and over again, despite his sacrifice.

EDIT: Pope urges Catholic church to disavow conservatism and fundamentalism

This will go over well.

edited 11th Nov '15 4:19:50 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12144: Nov 11th 2015 at 4:29:05 AM

Well he still suffered the pain and hurt of dying and being betrayed and denied by his friends. The fact that he came back afterwards doesn't change the fact that he suffered.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12145: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:15:07 AM

[up]Or the fact that it was all part of the plan.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12146: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:22:52 AM

Ok, but at the very least you shouldn't say he "died" for our sins. It's more like he "Had a really shitty day" for them.

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#12147: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:22:55 AM

See that's another thing- supposedly , Jesus knew this was going to happen, and that it was supposed to. And going from that , it doesn't make sense why Judas gets shafted in later traditions if what he did was necessary for God's master plan

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12149: Nov 11th 2015 at 5:28:24 AM

It's worth noting that not all Christians agree on the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. For example, the Moral Influence Theory:

"The moral influence doctrine of atonement is typically taught within a paradigm of salvation which focuses on positive moral change as the core of Christianity. God is depicted as concerned with whether a person's inner character is good or evil (where 'good' refers primarily to unselfish love toward others). In this system, God works to bring positive moral change within the hearts of individuals and to transform societies to become more loving. He acted to bring such change through the teachings of the Old Testament Law, the Jewish Prophets, and the teaching and example of Jesus. The inspiring power of Jesus' martyrdom and subsequent resurrection are also often cited as catalysts for moral change."

Note also:

"The moral influence view has historically come into conflict with a penal substitutionary view of atonement, as the two systems propose radically different criteria of salvation and judgment. The moral influence paradigm focuses on the moral change of people, leading to a positive final judgment for which the criteria focuses on inner moral character. By contrast, a penal substitutionary paradigm denies the saving value of human moral change. It focuses on faith in Christ and on his death on our behalf, leading to a positive final judgment based on what Christ has done for us and our trust in that - not on any positive moral qualities that we ourselves possess. As a result of these conflicts, a strong division has remained since the Reformation between liberal Protestants (who typically adopt a moral influence view) and conservative Protestants (who typically adopt a penal substitutionary view)."

edited 11th Nov '15 5:30:54 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12150: Nov 11th 2015 at 6:15:47 AM

There's the later assertion that Judas was in on the plan. If this is indeed the case, it could be that the truth is not supposed to be known. Someone who sacrificed himslef, allowing mankind to be saved by another self-sacrifice.

And there's absolutely no reason to assume that it was God's master plan. It may have been completely Jesus' original idea. Why else exclaim "Forgive them father, they know not what they do"?

All this sacrifice is making me think Aztecs may have been in on it later on.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

Total posts: 24,527
Top