Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.
Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.
Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:
- This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
- Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
- There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.
edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada
They can't avoid The Stations of the Canon and the Bleeding Jesuses, they're in every church and every parade!
At least the Catholic ones.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Why don't we just tell kids bible stories about Jesus being nice to people? Saying that love of money is the root of all evil, that you shouldn't judge people, that you should love others, that you should pay your taxes, that you should be understanding and accepting of those who are different as they are probably good people even if they're from another land, that those society rejects and shuns should be shown kindness and love, that violence is not the answer (unless someone is using the Church to make themselves money).
Those are all pretty kid friendly stories are they not?
Man I should totally do a mash up of quotes by Jesus and by someone called a crazy left winger, it would be funny as shit.
edited 10th Nov '15 2:25:30 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranHello everybody, I'm coming from, the Middle East thread with a question about Islam: what's the whole Caliphate thing about?
I mean, first there are the whacked-out wahhabis from Al-Quaeda who are saying that it's the holy duty of every Muslim to build a proper Caliphate, then there are the Daeshi fanatics who are running around slaughtering people on camera saying pretty much the same except with the addendum that all other Muslims who want to build a Caliphate are filthy heretics, then there are the goons from the Caucasus Emirate back in Chechnya who used the notion of building a Caliphate to justify building what was mostly a clan-based criminal syndicate masquerading as a state after the first war and who are now using the same rhetoric to justify ruining the lives of pretty much everybody else in the region by scaring potential investors and tourists away, and then there are the actual sane Muslims who keep insisting that Islam is the religion of peace. I'd really like to know what they say about Caliphates and Jihads in general and what is their stance on the distinction between the Greater Jihad and the Lesser Jihad.
@Xopher001
I'm not Catholic (I follow a denomination which I created), but at a Baptist church I used to go to I went to, I think I did something similar (if I'm understanding the catholic rite correctly). We went around in church and learned about the exact events that occurred during his execution.
Leviticus 19:34@Silasw: Well, with Christianity you do have to talk about Jesus's sacrifice-it's the whole point of the New Testament.
edited 10th Nov '15 11:32:06 PM by Protagonist506
Leviticus 19:34
He took them on willingly, for the sake of all. He has committed nothing that would warrant hell. The sheer magnitude of that self-sacrifice, of the Son of God, makes up for the collective sins of humanity. His virtue trumps all our sins.
And "hell" is a vague concept at best. Maybe his punishment is to see the same mistakes happen over and over again, despite his sacrifice.
EDIT: Pope urges Catholic church to disavow conservatism and fundamentalism
This will go over well.
edited 11th Nov '15 4:19:50 AM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para PerkeleWell he still suffered the pain and hurt of dying and being betrayed and denied by his friends. The fact that he came back afterwards doesn't change the fact that he suffered.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIt's worth noting that not all Christians agree on the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. For example, the Moral Influence Theory:
"The moral influence doctrine of atonement is typically taught within a paradigm of salvation which focuses on positive moral change as the core of Christianity. God is depicted as concerned with whether a person's inner character is good or evil (where 'good' refers primarily to unselfish love toward others). In this system, God works to bring positive moral change within the hearts of individuals and to transform societies to become more loving. He acted to bring such change through the teachings of the Old Testament Law, the Jewish Prophets, and the teaching and example of Jesus. The inspiring power of Jesus' martyrdom and subsequent resurrection are also often cited as catalysts for moral change."
Note also:
"The moral influence view has historically come into conflict with a penal substitutionary view of atonement, as the two systems propose radically different criteria of salvation and judgment. The moral influence paradigm focuses on the moral change of people, leading to a positive final judgment for which the criteria focuses on inner moral character. By contrast, a penal substitutionary paradigm denies the saving value of human moral change. It focuses on faith in Christ and on his death on our behalf, leading to a positive final judgment based on what Christ has done for us and our trust in that - not on any positive moral qualities that we ourselves possess. As a result of these conflicts, a strong division has remained since the Reformation between liberal Protestants (who typically adopt a moral influence view) and conservative Protestants (who typically adopt a penal substitutionary view)."
edited 11th Nov '15 5:30:54 AM by DeMarquis
I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.There's the later assertion that Judas was in on the plan. If this is indeed the case, it could be that the truth is not supposed to be known. Someone who sacrificed himslef, allowing mankind to be saved by another self-sacrifice.
And there's absolutely no reason to assume that it was God's master plan. It may have been completely Jesus' original idea. Why else exclaim "Forgive them father, they know not what they do"?
All this sacrifice is making me think Aztecs may have been in on it later on.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

Yeah, the "Bible Stories for Kids" bowdlerization thing is kind of a mixed bag for me. It comes from a natural paradox of being (in my view) something children need to be taught while also being (ironically) too disturbing for the Moral Guardians. I kind of see where they're coming from, but I think bowlderizing the Bible causes children to develop incorrect views later in life (thinking of it as an idealistic children's book, for example).
I myself generally lean in favor of leaving it mostly uncensored for children (maybe glossing over some of the more disturbing details. For example saying "Jesus was painfully executed", rather than describing the execution in full detail). But then again, I'm not really a moral guardian either and I probably wouldn't go very far to shelter my hypothetical children from violent media anyways (and partially because of the Bible-clearly if the Bible isn't too much for children, then neither is anything similarly disturbing).
edited 10th Nov '15 12:08:45 PM by Protagonist506
Leviticus 19:34