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Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.

Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.

Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:

  • This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
  • Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
  • There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.

edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#12026: Nov 5th 2015 at 3:00:09 PM

Nah Zeus was just a hornball.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#12027: Nov 5th 2015 at 4:19:13 PM

Following this line of thinking, they reasoned that the gods were very much like humanity, with all of its faults.

While I wouldn't necessarily trust the greek gods specifically, i find a fundamentally human (in essence, not necessarily form or existence) deity to be much easier to trust and seek guidance from, because they can be held accountable for mistakes and may be capable of recognizing them, and thusly, improving. a "perfect" being is static and doesn't make itself accountable.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12028: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:08:22 PM

The thing about the Greek myths, IIRC, is that they were written down by people who were less concerned about whether they were true than whether or not they made a beautiful story (i.e. playwrights and authors). The ordinary people who actually believed in the Gods passed their beliefs on orally, and their versions have not been recorded.

Re interpreting the Bible: I have long suspected that people who over-rely on specific (cherry-picked) passages to justify their beliefs dont really believe those things because the Bible told them so. They believe it for their own personal reasons and are using biblical passages as a rationalization. The idea that one has to use one's own judgement to formulate opinions and that consequently there can be no certainty of belief is too anxiety-provoking. Naturally, they are using their own judgement anyway, but they want to deny that- for themselves and for others.

@Corvidae: When your gut is calling to to something unhealthy, that obviously isn't "human-normative." There's some emotional impulse that you probably should work on so that your emotional impulses can direct you toward healthy things instead. That applies whether you think healthy emotional impulses come from God, natural selection, or both.

A theist, of course, believes that the path to God is long and difficult, and has many pitfalls along the way. But even a secular therapist would support the idea that gut feelings are to be developed and improved, not suppressed or ignored (not suggesting that you do this).

edited 5th Nov '15 5:10:19 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12029: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:21:17 PM

Usually, my criticism of religious extremists and fundie loons is that they substitute their will for God's, and claim it to be God's. A good theist does the opposite, he substitutes his will for God's.

Leviticus 19:34
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12030: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:25:45 PM

Can I suggest that an even better one realizes that God wants the same things we do?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12031: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:25:48 PM

@Fighter, one problem, you're assuming that the crazy evangelical literalists don't beat their kids.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12032: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:34:24 PM

[up]In general, the problem is that those are exactly the things that more "moderate" Christians (and I use the 'moderate' term lightly) make fun of fundie loons (as in, idiots who not only take the bible entirely at face value, but also take passages horribly out of context) for actually believing.

In other words, you'd run into a problem with the fundie loons giving you a blunt "yes" to those questions.

edited 5th Nov '15 5:34:58 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12033: Nov 5th 2015 at 5:57:40 PM

As for God wanting the same things humans want:

God made his commandments for mankind, not mankind for his commandments. However, I consider humans to be somewhat morally dislexic by nature (which is why we kind of have to rely on God's commandments in the first place), though we can have a vague idea of where he's going with his commandments.

Personally, I believe in an ethical system along these lines:

1. Achieve that which you can.

2. Respect the individual rights of others as equals under the Lord, and judge others by their merits and character alone.

3. Remain humble, and know that all comes from the Lord; in all things, glorify God.

That probably sounds a bit preachy, I admit. I would say that's the fundamentals of my own worldview, though.

edited 5th Nov '15 5:59:56 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#12034: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:27:24 PM

Thinking a Dr. Manhattan powered god would give a damn about humans is halarious at best and narcissistic at worst.

Having a god that is just as flawed as humans seems more reasonable and sincere than the Abrahamic faith.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#12035: Nov 5th 2015 at 6:36:55 PM

"In Hera's defense, Zeus married the goddess of faithful marriage and then proceeded to cheat on her prolifically"

But more important, Hera cant do a damn thing to Zeus so she goes againt everyone else, his lovers and children.

In fact I like Hades more, the poor guy is stuck in the underworld while his jerkass brother is out there and nobody pay atention, even nowdays everyone kept seen him as villian, what a poor guy

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#12036: Nov 5th 2015 at 10:28:05 PM

[up] He's probably one of the "nicer" gods of the Greek pantheon and he still kidnapped his wife (and cheated on her a few times). The only other Greek god I can think of who wasn't a dick is Hephaistos.

edited 5th Nov '15 10:31:10 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#12037: Nov 5th 2015 at 10:43:01 PM

Tried to rape Athena [lol]

Greek gods you so crazy

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#12038: Nov 5th 2015 at 10:52:34 PM

[up][up]

Some versions of the stories of Hades and Persephone is that it was less a forced abduction and more of an elopement. Which suggests that as death averse as they well, at least some of them thought it was worth cutting Hades some slack.

Though thinking things through, apart from Hestia, the only one of the Greek gods that I can't think of pulling any such stunts is Hermes, at least of his own volition. Obnoxious prankster, yes, but otherwise a fairly chill guy, at least when acting on his own behalf instead of as the messenger of the Gods.

Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#12039: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:12:28 AM

@DeMarquis: Are you implying that only "healthy" (as defined by you, I assume) impulses come from God, while "unhealthy" ones don't?

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12040: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:28:37 AM

[up]I'm not De Marquis, but my answer to that question would rather close to a yes.

Leviticus 19:34
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12041: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:48:50 AM

Isn't the whole reason we got kicked out of Eden that we can tell right from wrong just as well as God can?

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#12042: Nov 6th 2015 at 3:11:34 AM

[up]

Yes, but I think the bottom reason was that we shouldn't have known. Although I question the wisdom of putting the tree there in the first place.

I suppose the story of humanity is how we in our ignorance were happy, and in that ignorance lived a fuller life, and would have allowed us to grow into something else, lead by the divine wisdom of El Beardo. Then something happens, be it the Apple or the Watchers, that made us know and then started to see everything our way. Slower and painful path to be sure.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12043: Nov 6th 2015 at 3:59:56 AM

And then in the third act there's this massive twist where it turns out Adam and Eve weren't kicked out - they ran.

Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#12045: Nov 6th 2015 at 9:18:32 AM

Can I suggest that an even better one realizes that God wants the same things we do?

If, somewhere, there is a little Aszur with god powers out there, we are majorly screwed.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#12046: Nov 6th 2015 at 12:59:40 PM

On the topic of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil:

According to my pastor, in our Edenic state, "God was our moral compass". After the fall, we have internal moral compasses separate from God. More importantly, we now have the ability to rationalize doing terrible things.

My theory is rather similar: before the fall, Adam and Eve were basically compassionate moral nihilists/ethical hedonists of a sort (they found no pleasure in malice, but did find it in goodwill). When faced with an ethical dilemma that couldn't be dismissed with mere conscience, then they'd go to God.

Leviticus 19:34
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12047: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:07:20 PM

"Are you implying that only "healthy" (as defined by you, I assume) impulses come from God, while "unhealthy" ones don't?"

Of course. This is the only logical conclusion one can come to, provided one is already a theist to begin with. Does an evil God create a little creature with better morals than he has? Why would he want to? "Healthy" impulses are essentially impulses that are in alignment with the rest of the universe- that is, they are an outcome of the same underlying forces that produced everything else in the universe and therefore lead to a life that is in harmony with it. That would be the case even if there were no God. Since I do believe in one, what other conclusion is there except he created a universe in which it is possible for me to pursue a set of life-goals that will lead to a sense of self-fulfillment through harmony with it? Therefore anything which leads me to that sense of self-fulfillment "comes from God" in that sense, and anything which does not comes from something else.

Anyway, I don't feel the presence of a malevolent or apathetic God in my heart, I feel a loving one.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#12048: Nov 6th 2015 at 2:14:51 PM

What about when they disagreed with God?

Even before eating the apple, Adam was a bit of a diva. God presented him with all of creation and was like, "Look upon my works. You shall tend my garden and be responsible for the world. Choose from any of my creatures to be your partner in your task."

And Adam was all, "No, that's no good, and that one's no good, and that one's no good. God, I have looked upon ALL OF CREATION and it's all shit. Nothing you made's good enough to be MY partner. Make me something better suited to me."

So God took a rib from Adam and used it to make woman in Adam's image and was like, "Look, you little shit, I made another YOU. Happy now?"

And Adam was like, "Meh, this is good enough. Excellent work, God!"

In the story of Eden, women exist because Adam is an unpleasable narcissistHEY .

edited 6th Nov '15 2:19:08 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12049: Nov 6th 2015 at 3:12:37 PM

Alright, bear with me on this one.

What if, the reason we exist is so that God can figure out morality in the first place? Like, he's still omniscient and everything, but the problem is that without any context good and evil aren't really coherent concepts. So he creates us, and we come up with ethical dilemmas that he can then know the solution to.

Thus we define morality by failing to adhere to it.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12050: Nov 6th 2015 at 4:42:34 PM

I think this is one of the best that SMBC made in quite some time. Some people can make their own Hell even in the best of all possible worlds.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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