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FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#60876: Aug 18th 2019 at 7:34:51 AM

Are we just passing right by each other? I just explained why Adam's a different case from any other enemy Yang (and Blake, for that matter) had faced. His is a twofold threat, both physical and psychological. His mere existence plagues both of them. Since they were fighting as equals side by side all that time, that Blake won't let her by declaring protection is what rankles Yang (and because that means she wouldn't be able to punch Adam herself)

Any fight that happened prior to Yang losing her arm is irrelevant in that context. Vol 5 finale I might give you, but Adam was right there and so I'm willing to believe Blake might have been more focused on him and the White Fang than anything happening inside.

[up][up] I didn't give this much thought, since this was mostly in response to Tharkun's claim as if Blake white knighting Yang had something to do with her physical disability. I might have used wrong words there though.

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#60877: Aug 18th 2019 at 7:58:24 AM

Are we just passing right by each other? I just explained why Adam's a different case from any other enemy Yang (and Blake, for that matter) had faced. His is a twofold threat, both physical and psychological. His mere existence plagues both of them.

Yes, Adam is (supposedely at least) more dangerous than most enemies Yang and Blake have to face. Which is exactly why Blake being concerned for Yang in this instance is not a sign of any problems on her part and why Yang should welcome that support unless she fels particularly insecure about something — which is how I choose to interpret that scene — or feels Blake's help would not be useful.

Since they were fighting as equals side by side all that time, that Blake won't let her by declaring protection is what rankles Yang (and because that means she wouldn't be able to punch Adam herself)

There is no logical reason for Yang to think that Blake meant "I will fight Adam alone!". And if she interpreted it this way and her biggest concern was not getting to punch Adam herself, then I seriously question Yang's empathy and concern for her friends.

Any fight that happened prior to Yang losing her arm is irrelevant in that context.

Alright, how about the Manticore fight? Blake and Yang fight alongside each other, with no visible issues and none of them being overprotective of the other one.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#60878: Aug 18th 2019 at 9:26:02 AM

There are a lot of things that are a part of "human experience" that I don't want to see in a story. Aside from trivial examples like urinating or doing laundry — well I guess doing laundry can be used to show the mundaneness of character's life, but I digress — there are important elements of life that simply aren't worth focusing on while writing a story. I don't need to see Blake learn how to talk to a disabled* person without offending them any more than I need to see her learn how to safely clean her weapon. Both are skills that can be useful for her, both are things humans are learning in real life and both can influence the plot in some way, but unless there is some actual evolution in her attitude or ideals, I'm just better off seeing some story where characters learn new skills and grow while doing so.

  • I am using the 'disabled' label in a very loose sense, one that doesn't actually fit under the commonly accepted definition of 'disability' as "a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities". The only way Yang can be consider disabled under that definition is if we consider some very specific activity, such as "being able to clip her nails on the right hand" or "keeping her hand still under all circumstances".

I'm sure you're not trying to be so dismissive of disability/long-term health conditions as your post implies. However, given that I fall within two of the many categories of disability, hidden disability, mental health issues, and 'long-term incurable health conditions' that your post has chosen, by consequence, to entirely dismiss and, given that I have to deal with that attitude enough in real life off the Internet, this topic is starting to get just a little too real for me. I therefore think it's best for all of us if I bow out of this particular subject entirely.

I think people misunderstood my Ultimate Universe question.

What is the Ultimate Universe? I've never heard of it before. At least... I don't think I have.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 18th 2019 at 5:35:04 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#60879: Aug 18th 2019 at 9:33:56 AM

[up] It's just another trope.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#60880: Aug 18th 2019 at 10:11:54 AM

Right, okay. I didn't realise that was a trope. So, we're talking about something akin to the Star Trek reboot films.

The main problem the current story has — and it's an issue common to its type of storytelling (Harry Potter suffers from it as well) — is that school settings struggle with cast size.

This show has a resource issue for the type of story it's trying to tell. It didn't have the technical resources, the staffing resources, the time, to put into the kind of story it wanted to be. It was also viewed as a show for people to develop their skills on — writers with limited writing experience, animators with limited or even no fight animation or choreographing experience, animators who had to be multiple departments rolled up into one, so they originally couldn't devote the time they needed to actually animating (they had to be layout artists, camera teams, modellers, etc., on top of being animators). They even didn't have enough female staff to mo-cap female body movements until Volume 3 — they were using men who tried to mimic female movements, which is probably why we have the ridiculous hip movements such as Blake marching away from Weiss during their big fight in the street over the White Fang. And the constant sight of women walking by putting one leg directly in front of the other — this is a catwalk model walk that does just about work for Cinder, but looks utterly ridiculous on every other female in the show because women do not naturally walk like that.

And I haven't even got to episode length yet.

So, if we're waving magic wands in a 'what if' conversation, this is what I'd do: create the resources needed for the scale of the story they want to tell, and get them to content draft all the volumes before they even begin to think about writing episode scripts.

I'd bring the Maidens in to the beginning of the story. They were invented between Volumes 2-3. While I think they've managed to deal with the addition decently enough, they struggle with foreshadowing. They're better at set-up than they seem, but that's not the same thing as foreshadowing. They're so scared of giving too much away too soon that they don't get the pacing right for knowledge-sharing with the audience. While foreshadowing happens, it's tentative, piece-meal and not well-paced.

Faunus discrimination definitely needs to be given a bigger role. Faunus discrimination shouldn't be limited to the villains and the bullies. We should be seeing it in the good people, too. Not just active, conscious discrimination, but the casual discrimination. Where good people fall into racist tropes because society and individuals aren't self-aware enough to realise the things they say. For example, Ruby's ad-lib 'She does like tuna a lot' when Penny comments on Blake's cat ears is a funny line. However, in real life, that can actually fall under the banner of casual racism. Ruby has assumed that Blake's fondness for tuna is solely because Blake is a 'cat' Faunus.

Weiss's attitude towards Faunus and the White Fang needs a better build up since it's so connected to her story. Adam's role needs to have been better integrated into the story and with more activity to properly build up the kind of person he is. I'd turn him into a villain for the entire team: his history with the SDC should be drawing in Weiss as much as his personal history with Blake draws in Blake. Then Yang's personal connection gets brought in during the Fall of Beacon as has happened. Ruby would have to explore and develop her leadership abilities as the leader of a team with very personal connections to a villain that endangers all their lives. It would give her a true leadership challenge to make use of her being appointed, while her indirect relationship with Adam (through her team-mates) gives her the ability to take that level-headed (but compassionate) approach to the very personal issues of her team. Adam's role in the story would therefore be about developing Team RWBY as an actual team alongside his greater metaplot role of enabling Salem's plans.

I would like to see a better exploration of Dust technology, given how important it is to the ability of Huntsmen to protect people from the Grimm. We had a criminal who was causing a Dust shortage in Vale and driving up prices (according to the villains). We never saw that, despite the being in a school setting where Dust was extremely important. So, why couldn't we have seen the students struggling with access to ammo and Dust prices. We could have had stories where the heroes were fighting the bad guys, but also had the extra pressure of using up ammo stores that were becoming increasingly difficult to justify the use of to the school administration.

More importantly, we have a World of Remnant mini-series and a school setting. So, I'd turn the mini-series into classes:

  • Dust: Technology classes on improving primary weapons (are we really expected to believe that kids younger than 17 have designed the perfect weapon for themselves instead of a starting weapon that they will constantly improve as their Huntsmen skills increase with age and experience)? The audience could have been introduced to Dust, ammunition, and other technology through such classes. And, even if students are happy with their weapons as they currently are, what about other equipment that might be useful to Huntsmen who need to stay stocked. Blade cleaning, how to safely carry potentially explosive Dust ammo when in the field (and, worse, if jumping around like a fizzy can of pop in battle).
  • Aura and Semblances: the big thing about Huntsmen that sets them apart from the rest of humanity, and even the military, is the extensive training in Aura that they have. We learn in Volume 5 that Ozpin believes Aura and Semblances continue to grow and develop throughout life is the will is there to constantly explore one's abilities. So where is the classroom teaching where the audience learns with the students how to get the best out of their Auras and Semblances?
  • The CCT episode? Even that can be brought in. The episode talks about relay stations outside the Kingdom. Scattered through several episodes are mentions that Grimm don't simple target humans, they actually target human creations as well. So, relay stations outside the Kingdoms that help global communications are at risk from Grimm attack. Potential Huntsmen missions may therefore involve shift work to help protect vital human technology that needs to be set up outside the Kingdoms for things like global communication. It can even touch on Oobleck's point in Mountain Glenn that the job of being a Huntsman isn't always about fame and excitement. It can be a long, tiring, boring, thankless daily grind, and students need to understand that.
  • And so on.

The show went to the trouble of creating teachers. It really should have used them. However, the show seemed to make the mistake of acting like the kids going into Beacon already knew everything they needed to know about the weapons and fighting style they were personally choosing. Weiss said in the second episode to Ruby that this was proper combat school, with proper combat training. It should have been a good point, but the show never utilised the school and its supposed reputation or its supposed exclusivity and eliteness. We had the landing strategy. And then the very occasional class with Glynda, Port or Oobleck. But nothing beyond that.

I could keep going but this is getting too long. My point here is that my retool would be about storytelling scope. And the above is effectively just the Vale Arc, so would take us up to the Fall of Beacon.

The downside of my story is that we really would be in for a long story here. Proper episode lengths, proper (US) series' lengths. A long-play that might take years longer to unfold than many of this fandom has the patience for. But, hey, this is just a head game talking, not reality. After all, RvB has been going for over a decade. [lol]

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 18th 2019 at 6:31:55 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#60881: Aug 18th 2019 at 12:00:26 PM

I Will said the issue with Yang and Blake are their personal problems pilling up at the wrong Time.

Blake have an issue of Being a loner and Is fight with Adam only renforce that, so in a moment of weakness she ran and you can said she betray Yang who try to save her and lost an arm for that.

Meanwhile Yang have learn that Ozpin,Qrow,Raven have "reasons" to do what they do even if that bring misery to others, Is telling the best healthy help she got Was her father Tell her that she Is child holding a tantrum, that her fighting have flaws and that her mother Was responsable for their break up, in short he threat her as an Equal.

Which Is why she Is piss out, Blake try to Tell her she learned and wont run away, while Yang saw it as trying to disrespect her.

There Is also the fact neither of them really discuss what happen in beacon, this the clóset thing so a little of scorn Is showing.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#60882: Aug 18th 2019 at 2:43:35 PM

If I had to say things I'd change?

1. Make it so that the budget was increased from the start, and have the series done in Maya from the start. Look, I get Monty worked best with Poser, but the Poser volumes.... they don't look that good. The movements are stiff, the facial expressions are nonexistent, everyone has a blank stare during the fighting, and there's no real shading to the setting. Compare that to the Maya volumes, where the movements look more fluid, the facial expressions are heavily improved, you can see the emotion on the characters faces as they fight, and the setting is actually shaded. Just compare how the characters run between the two.

  • In poser, the running animation was the exact same for every character. Leaning forward with their arms in L shapes as they swing side to side. And this is still just recycled animation, since the same running animation was used in Red Vs Blue The Project Freelancer Saga, most evident when Carolina, Wash, and York are all running off the collapsing building side by side, and they're all running the exact same way.
  • In maya, each character has their own way of running, and the running looks a lot more natural. Just look at RWBY and Maria running from the Apathy for comparison.
Using Maya from the offset could also aid in the foreshadowing department. Look back at the fight between Ruby and Glynda against Cinder. They couldn't see her face but Glynda was able to identify that she was the one who attacked Amber thanks to the signature Eye Flame. If the facial expressions were better, a small scene could be added where once the Eye Flame ignites, Glynda could let out a small gasp and then narrow her eyes in determination. This would demonstrate how serious Glynda is taking the situation, while also highlighting the idea that she knows who it is they're fighting. Even if Monty worked best in Poser, he was really the only one who did good in Poser, aside from his technical apprentice Shane. After Monty passed and Shane left for reasons best unsaid, they switched to Maya. Monty should have been able to work in Maya if necessary, and as evident with Yang vs. Adam Round 2, his animation can be used in the Maya engine. So for the sake of a more polished product, Maya should have been the go to.
2. Flesh out Cinder from the beginning. One of the biggest reasons she is despised by people, including myself, is that her entire character can be summed up as: "I want to be strong. I want to be feared. I want to be powerful." & "She's a sadistic bitch with a massive murder boner for anyone who bruises her ego." She doesn't necessarily need to be a sympathetic villain, lord knows there are already enough Cinder apologists out there, but she does need to be an actual character. Jessica Nigri is doing an okay performance for her, but the lack of depth to Cinder combined with only an okay performance just leaves Cinder as a lackluster performance for a bad character. Give her a backstory, don't make her look like an Invincible Villain and instead show her flaws but also things that would actually make her seem likable. Hell, give a reason as to why Emerald is so devoted to her than just "She took me off the streets and I now an deluded into thinking she cares about me." to contrast the scenes were she is more abusive to Emerald.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#60883: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:24:50 AM

In fairness,a huge part of why the show enjoys the level of popularity it has now is because the fight scenes were so good when Monty was still alive.

This may not have been the case if he was forced to adapt to a different animation program.

Edited by DeanCole on Aug 19th 2019 at 4:32:18 AM

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#60884: Aug 19th 2019 at 5:42:15 AM

[up][up] Given recent controversies, how would we know the budget is going to the right places even if it's increased?

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#60885: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:36:30 AM

[up] We don't, and that freaking bites.

Anyways, anyone feels like cleaning up the Fridge Brilliance section? There is a lot of wrong with it, including baseless theories, conflicting explanations, counterpart comparisons, obvious observations, objectively incorrect informations, selective interpretations and just... everything.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#60886: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:39:25 AM

[up][up]Wait, which controversy?

Are there other ones beside the Vic Mignona incident?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#60887: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:42:32 AM

[up] According to some estimates, roughly one third of the last two volumes was made for free through unpaid overtime and interships under false premises of employment.

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#60888: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:45:28 AM

...Well shit.

Now I feel sorry about complaining about the quality of fight choreography.

Man, I knew this kind of abuse is really common in animation (see also: Sausage Party) but I didn't expect that from RT. surprised

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#60889: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:51:51 AM

[up]There stopping the crunch which is why V7 is coming out in November and the price increase for first membership.

Tharkun140 The Arch-Douchebag Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
The Arch-Douchebag
#60890: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:01:44 AM

[up] Have they even claimed that the price increases and the delay were caused by this in particular? Like, do we even have their own word that they want money to compensate animators properly?

Edited by Tharkun140 on Aug 19th 2019 at 5:11:39 PM

Apathy is Death. Worse than Death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds beasts and insects.
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#60891: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:07:32 AM

I mean, it does explain the quality and lack of care put into the most infamous battle in RWBY history.

"We're not getting paid to animate? Well, might as well animate nothing happening!"

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#60892: Aug 19th 2019 at 9:35:39 AM

Makes you wonder if Shane Black's Newville's (?) criticisms of the company were really that far-fetched, don't it.

Edited by Soble on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:33:53 PM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#60893: Aug 19th 2019 at 10:55:09 AM

[up] SHHHHH! We don't talk about that here!

Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#60894: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:02:47 PM

4x[up]I know the push back release date is to help with crunch and am amusing to the price increase is to help pay people better. [1]

[up][up]I thought Shane was in favor of crunch.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#60895: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:30:17 PM

People, there's a reason Shane Newville is considered Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment. For the sake of everyone's sanity, lets stop talking about him.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#60896: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:35:00 PM

[up] (3)

So it would seem.

Again, given what's been revealed, I'm surprised. I'm guessing this thread must have exploded when that letter came out but... I've been here since Volume 2 and I must have been away when that happened.

I get that the guy was a bit unhinged but, again, was he entirely wrong?

The world shall never know.

Edited by Soble on Aug 19th 2019 at 12:41:16 PM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#60897: Aug 19th 2019 at 1:53:35 PM

Someone's got an interesting question about the new layout of the Character pages that I don't think really came up at the time: there was a decision made to put Merlot on the World of Remnant page, but the question is about moving him to the Eastern Sanus page because he's based near Vale.

Would people mind chiming in on the discussion? It's the World of Remnant discussion page. I'll quote the question here as well, but for the sake of keeping a discussion in one location, if anyone has any opinions, would they mind posting it on the discussion page?

Shouldn't Merlot be moved to the Eastern Sanus section? The majority of Grimm Eclipse happens around the Kingdom of Vale and Merlot's island can't be too far away from the continent for Beacon's airship to have gotten to it as quickly as it did.


Again, given what's been revealed, I'm surprised. I'm guessing this thread must have exploded when that letter came out but... I've been here since Volume 2 and I must have been away when that happened.

In fairness, this thread was mostly sensible about it. There were one or two people here and there but, overall, there was a lot of compassion for someone who was clearly suffering and a general attitude of 'there's no way for the fandom know how true it is, but we can see how inflammatory this is elsewhere on the Internet, so let's nip things in the bud over here'.

So, as far as I can remember, this place stayed calm — well, mostly calm. There was a little bit of discussion over whether the ideas he said Monty wanted to do, but which never made it into the show, would have been a good idea, but that managed to stay a discussion about the show rather than about Monty, Shane and RT.


Regarding Monty and Maya. Listening to the fandom, I've always been left with the impression that Monty never used Maya and even refused to. However, I recently picked up the blu-rays (oddly enough, for reasons unrelated to RWBY) and have been listening to all the commentaries and behind the scenes for the first time.

Aside from discovering that what I think is good info to know is completely different to all those fans who summarised what they thought was interesting from these commentaries, I was surprised by something else that was said on the Volume 2 disc: apparently, Monty actually was using Maya from the beginning. He was using Maya to design the weapons and to animate how the weapons extend, collapse and transform. Once happy with it, he'd put dials on everything and export it all into Poser. In Poser, animators could then pick up the weapons and just slide the dials to transform them during fights.

So, he was basically designing in Maya and animating fights in Poser, which forced the sets to be built in Poser.

I admittedly don't know the first thing about animating, but that doesn't come across as a good idea to me.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:19:18 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#60898: Aug 19th 2019 at 3:34:33 PM

It sounds like it was. After he passed a big hurdle was that all the other animators were trained with Maya because that's the standard, but Shane refused to animate in anything but poser because that's how Monty did it. So the team had to convert things done one one to the other which obviously is not efficient.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#60899: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:03:01 PM

Making the rigs in Maya and importing them to Poser actually explains why we didn't see Sun's gunchucks again until Volume 5. I kept hearing the reason they never showed up in Volume's 2 and 3 were because he couldn't recreate the rig used for them or create different rigs for different poses. It's likely the one rig they did have either got deleted and he couldn't import a new one into Poser, or he wanted to use a different rig so it wouldn't look identical every time Sun whipped out the gunchucks, but couldn't make a new one or import it to poser.
Hearing that he designed parts in Maya but then imported them to Poser and did the rest there makes it sound like he either

  • A: Intentionally made things harder for himself as a way of challenging himself
  • B: Was the opposite of Industry Standard and worked better in Poser than in Maya, despite Maya being the easier of the two.

Though that does seem like a very odd business practice. Even if Monty preferred to animate in Poser, doing so forced the rest of the show to be in Poser and in turn caused the show to suffer for it. And there's evidence that he can animate fights in Maya, since the Adam vs. Yang part of the fight in Argus was his animation, just used in the Maya engine. So he could have animated in Maya, the comparatively easier engine and industry standard, and it likely would have helped the show due to the many things Maya has over Poser, namely the shading and facial expressions. Its just that for whatever reason, he didn't want to, and his decision to use Poser ultimately hurt the show in the long run.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Aug 19th 2019 at 7:06:36 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#60900: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:29:51 PM

there's evidence that [Monty] can animate fights in Maya, since the Adam vs. Yang part of the fight in Argus was his animation, just used in the Maya engine.

...volume extras, or post-episode commentary I'm guessing?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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