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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46276: May 28th 2017 at 6:25:59 PM

I can see why someone would like Weiss' arc, but I agree that Blake's was better while Weiss' wan't particularly even decent. I also think that plot Uniquenameosaurus wrote out for Yang would be pretty good, especially because it wouldn't need to give her more than 2 episodes of screentime. And the comment about season 4 feeling more like season 3? I love that comment. It sums up so many critical feelings I had about season 4 while watching it.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#46277: May 28th 2017 at 6:26:27 PM

Ah sh't.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46278: May 28th 2017 at 6:38:11 PM

I've been bingeing Redvs Blue recently and going off of it, if RWBY is going to on as long it has I'd expect volumes like volume 4 to be fairly common because I got a similar vibe from like every other season of R vs. B after season six.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#46279: May 28th 2017 at 7:01:03 PM

Okay so I just went ahead and watched the other video, which turned out to be about the series as a whole up to that point, not just season three.

tldr, season one was a mixed bag with some good bits and some terrible bits, season two was just an improvement overall (mostly good, some great, fewer terrible), and season three was even better because it has all of season two's general improvements plus goes in an entirely new and exciting direction with the plot during the finale.

I'm not going to summarize his points more specifically than that other than to comment on them, because it's a 20-minute video and I'd inevitably forget and/or mangle his points.

His main point about season one is that several of the characters are problematic because they're either bland (like Pyrrha) or straight-up unlikable (like Weiss, who's just unpleasant, or Jaune, who is cringey and annoying) but that virtually all of these characters are redeemed via character development in season two (Jaune gets some self-confidence and remains adorkable but without the cringe, Pyrrha's relationship with Jaune gives her a Lonely at the Top aspect that makes her more interesting, and Weiss just kinda chills out in general). I largely agree with all of this, except with Weiss who I never really warmed up to as much as he did. One thing that he mentions about Weiss which I found interesting is that he points out that there are basically two sides of her personality that are pretty much entirely disconnected from each other. Sometimes she's the cold, aloof rich girl who looks down her nose at everyone else, and sometimes she's less standoffish and more excitable, and there's no real transition from one to the other. He seems to read it as the latter being her real personality and the former being a persona she's developed in an attempt to live up to her family's expectations, but — as he points out — they do a terrible job of showing that, which is why I don't really buy it.

His comments on the season three finale are almost entirely on the concept and very little about the execution, so while I don't really disagree with his specific thoughts (for example, that getting rid of the school setting opens up a lot of interesting new plot directions), I don't agree with his overall conclusion (that the season three finale was great and left him wanting more). My beef with the season three finale has always been that it felt like an Only The Author Can Save Us Now sitaution. The bad guys held all the cards and had absolute control over everything, which completely killed the dramatic tension for me and made the whole thing a drag because it felt like a foregone conclusion. Oddly, he didn't mention Ruby's silver-eye powers (either in this video or the season four video) at all, which is interesting because it's a huge part of my problem with both the season three finale and Ruby's character development (or lack thereof) in season three and four. Apparently he's willing to accept magical eye-powers if it gets the plot where he wants it to go, while I find them really unsatisfying and annoying.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#46280: May 28th 2017 at 8:14:58 PM

I agree with the dude's complaints about how the show can be very cringe early on, but I'm not entirely sure if he's on the same page as me because he doesn't elaborate. I find the show at its most cringe when it tries to do any anime-type gags that honestly aren't funny.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#46281: May 28th 2017 at 8:18:37 PM

I think one of RWBY's problems is that it tries to use anime storytelling conventions while also using more Western storytelling conventions. Because of that, you're going to have some fans (like me) who think the show would be better if it went full anime while others think it'd be better if it got rid of as much anime-esque stuff as possible and it's literally impossible to please both.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#46282: May 29th 2017 at 1:59:49 AM

It's not impossible to please both because there are some people who like japanese and western style story-telling.

I just think that RWBY uses a lot of Japanese storytelling while being bad at it.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#46283: May 29th 2017 at 3:33:24 AM

It's impossible to please both sides...

If one side likes one style but not the other...the people in the middle don't count because they'll just be talking about the real flaws.

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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#46284: May 29th 2017 at 6:10:12 AM

tldr, he rates volume four "okay but not great" because too much exposition and not enough plot advancement.

Except that Volume 4 is packed full of plot advancement.

There's more plot exploration in Volume 4 than in any volume to date. It just happens in a different (and less blood-pumping) manner to the previous volumes (novel-esque rather than video-game-esque).

When I see people complaining about 'no plot advancement' in Volume 4, what they're usually complaining about is this different manner of developing the plot and the pros and cons that don't make the volume enjoyable for them. I've got no problems with people not enjoying the way Volume 4 is carried out (for example, see below), but the fandom has conflated style of storytelling with 'plot advancement' in a way that should not happen.

He liked volume four but felt that it didn't live up to the promise of volume three's ending because there wasn't enough that happened to actually demonstrate that Nothing Is the Same Anymore.

I think his concern here is perfectly valid because the show does suffer from the Show, Don't Tell problem.

The show seems to have take a decision that things are seen from the perspective of the main characters. That means anything they're not directly involved with doesn't get seen by the audience. It is a very long-standing, traditional style of storytelling. Some storytellers can pull it off, some storytellers can't.

For example, David Eddings. His Belgariad series is hit-and-miss for me in its ability to pull off this style of storytelling (it's mostly seen from Garion's point-of-view, so the reader only learns as Garion does —- except for those few occasions where the reader journeys with Ce'Nedra instead of Garion). That style drove me mad in the Belgariad books because I don't think Eddings pulled it off well at all. However, the Mallorean books did a much better job of handling this style, making for a much better overall reading experience.

In RWBY, the 'from the protagonist's POV' has worked well for Volumes 1-3, because the kids are only just beginning to learn the truth about the world they live in, so the audience learns with them. However, one example of where it was a missed opportunity is the fact that we didn't get to see much in the way of faunus discrimination. We got told about it too much. With Blake hiding her Faunus status, we don't get to see what she's hiding from, and Velvet isn't in the show enough for us to see more than the one example of bullying in a storyline that actually focusses on Jaune's position as leader, rendering the faunus discrimination a bully-boy footnote.

That means the missed opportunity is Sun. He's the one where the faunus discrimination could be really explored, especially because of his laid-back personality and dislike of the White Fang, and especially since otherwise good people could conflate his laid-back, no-personal-boundaries style with his faunus heritage in a more realistic approach to racism (people in real life can often seem like they're starting with 'legitimate' issues that when poked only slightly fall apart to reveal the racism driving the issue). We did see a little bit with Weiss, but it was displayed as if very unusual because of unique circumstances.

But that's a Show, Don't Tell problem rather than a 'from the protagonist's POV' problem. And the separation between the two is the big problem with Volume 4. Because we see things from the protagonist's POV, we don't get to see everything. That's fine, but only if they are the window to us actually seeing what's happening around them, instead of being told about it. And with the main characters too isolated from the societies where the Beacon fallout is happening, we're just not seeing the fallout right now. We get one or two glimpses at best, and are told the rest.

He also complaints that despite the enormous amount of exposition in this season, some things went conspicuously unmentioned — like what Neo was up to this whole time, or what happened to Penny (was her body recovered? Was the project that developed her cancelled? Can she be repaired or rebuilt or replaced with a new incarnation?)

However, I don't always agree with things like this, where the implication from the person talking about is that they want to see every single plot thread, every single question being dealt with in every single volume.

No, we don't need to circle around every subject in ever volume. In an ongoing storyline we dip in and out of aspects as the authors feel relevant for the flow of the story. We don't have to cover every subject in every volume. If we get to the very end of the story, and there's no more RWBY to ever come, and Penny was never revisited or we never do find out what happened to Neo, then we've got cause to complain about things not being addressed.

Until the story ends, however, we're not in a position to say Plot Thread A should have occurred during Volume X. It's fair enough to say 'these are the plot threads I'm most interested in and wish we'd seen more' — I've got no problem with that. But we should have no expectations that every aspect of the plot should ever be covered in a single volume. That's too much and will kill the volume through over-stuffing.

Edit: Corrected post format problem.

edited 29th May '17 3:47:32 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46285: May 29th 2017 at 6:51:23 AM

Except that Volume 4 is packed full of plot advancement.

I agree, and that's the issue. Too many things were happening, so almost everything suffered from mismanaged screentime and relevance. Blake's arc is the only one who's issues have nothing to do with this, and work on spite of the actual issues in her arc.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#46286: May 29th 2017 at 7:57:33 AM

There's more plot exploration in Volume 4 than in any volume to date. It just happens in a different (and less blood-pumping) manner to the previous volumes (novel-esque rather than video-game-esque).
"Exploration" is not the same thing as "advancement". The complaint isn't that there's no plot-related things going on at all, the complaint is that it's all setup and exposition, rather than actually moving the plot forward. Season three ended on the idea that Nothing Is the Same Anymore, Beacon was gone, the Kingdoms were isolated, and the Big Bad was finally making her move. Season four has... one fight with Tyrian? Other than that, nothing's related to advancing the plot from where it stood at the end of season three. Blake decides to seize control of White Fang (but she'd already been thinking about how to deal with them since season two). Weiss fights with her dad and runs off to do huntress things despite his disapproval (that's literally her pre-season-one backstory). Yang has an arm again, but now it's shiny (return to status quo). Ruby learns nothing (and doesn't even express interesting in learning anything) about her role as a silver-eyed warrior or how it fits in with everything else,

Overall, volume four feels less like "holy crap, everything is different now!" and more like "okay, everything will be different next season, promise". Some stuff happened, sure, but very little of it had anything to do with the fallout of season three.

And with the main characters too isolated from the societies where the Beacon fallout is happening, we're just not seeing the fallout right now. We get one or two glimpses at best, and are told the rest.
This is exactly what he was talking about in the video when he says that the situation at the end of season four feels like it hasn't changed since the end of season three. We went from "holy crap everything is falling apart!" to "let's spend an entire season not dealing with the fact that holy crap everything is falling apart".

No, we don't need to circle around every subject in ever volume. In an ongoing storyline we dip in and out of aspects as the authors feel relevant for the flow of the story.
RWBY is a serial medium. It's released in chunks over a long period of time. "They're not showing the plotline I want to see!" is absolutely a valid criticism. If it was a novel or a movie or some other type of work that was presented as a single complete whole, then "wait until the end before you judge it" would be a reasonable point. But suggesting that you can't say "I didn't like season four because it didn't show me any of the things I wanted to see so it felt like a waste of time" is silly when wasting an entire season means it'll be another year (or more, if they don't address it next season either) before you get to see the part you're interested in.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46287: May 29th 2017 at 1:33:33 PM

"They're not showing the plotline I want to see!" is absolutely a valid criticism.

No, it really isn't. RWBY is nowhere near close to being over, and people are inevitably going to be more invested and interested in different plotlines based on taste. "They didn't focus on what I hoped they would" is absolutely a legit reason for personal disappointment, but it is in no way valid basis for objective criticism.

There's a very easy example of that in this season: the Ren and Nora backstory. A lot of people who considered that pointless or poorly done, and that's fine, but there are also a lot of people who loved it, and would consider the volume much worse if that had been removed. Different priorities and interest and Ren and Nora factor heavily into which opinion you hold on the matter.

As others have said, they can't focus on everything all the time, and spreading themselves too thin might very well have hampered their story-telling on what they did show. And for the specific criticisms: I'm very doubtful of them forgetting Penny, and Neo frankly is so unimportant that even if they did never bring her up again it really wouldn't matter. I don't think they should just leave her hanging there, but her only significant connection to the story is Torchiwick, and he's gone.

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#46288: May 29th 2017 at 2:18:14 PM

RWBY season 4 feels the same way to me as A Song of Fire and Ice book 4: the previous installment was ridiculous so let’s just give up on escalating and set up for the rest of the series with some ok but not remarkable plotting.

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#46289: May 29th 2017 at 3:21:15 PM

"They didn't focus on what I hoped they would" is absolutely a legit reason for personal disappointment, but it is in no way valid basis for objective criticism.
My point was that "they didn't spend any/enough time on the plotline I wanted to see more of" is a legitimate reason to dislike the season, and that "just wait until next season, they'll get around to it" does nothing to make this season any less of a disappointment. You could also make a strong argument for "this season is weaker than it would have been otherwise because they focused on certain plotlines over others".

As others have said, they can't focus on everything all the time, and spreading themselves too thin might very well have hampered their story-telling on what they did show.
That's a fair point, but the video pointed out (and I agree) that season four had the opposite problem — too much of it felt like it was just killing time that could have been used on plot advancement instead. Neo and Penny, specifically, wouldn't have needed much screen time. Just a scene each, a minute or so at most, and it would have at least reassured fans that those plot threads hadn't been abandoned. Show Neo literally anywhere doing literally anything and we at least know that she's still around, while where she is and what she's doing will give us a hint at her plans. Penny is even easier, since we already have Wiess moping around in Atlus. Show Penny unloaded from a ship or have someone from the project discussing their progress with Ironwood and/or Weiss's dad.

Neo frankly is so unimportant that even if they did never bring her up again it really wouldn't matter
It's possible that Neo, like Roman, no longer has a place in the story and has been effectively written out. But if that's what they're doing, then that's what they should do — leaving the plot thread hanging like they have so far is sloppy writing, and I'll be very disappointed if it turns out that they're done with her. (Then again, I also thought that Roman was the most interesting antagonist in the series, and I'm pretty disappointed that they killed him in a way that was not only anti-climactic, but was also a cop-out to save Ruby from a fight she was losing.)

her only significant connection to the story is Torchiwick, and he's gone.
Which certainly means that she wouldn't be plotting revenge against Ruby for his death, or that there's an interesting story arc to be had there. Definitely not. Better to just drop the character entirely.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#46290: May 29th 2017 at 3:49:00 PM

"Exploration" is not the same thing as "advancement".

If you mean they're separate or should be considered separately, I disagree.

The complaint isn't that there's no plot-related things going on at all, the complaint is that it's all setup and exposition, rather than actually moving the plot forward.

It was both.

Season three ended on the idea that Nothing Is the Same Anymore, Beacon was gone, the Kingdoms were isolated, and the Big Bad was finally making her move.

It definitely did not end on the idea that the Big Bad was finally making her move. She was, in fact, very clear that she was only just getting started. Salem merely confirmed that all we've seen is the story's introduction.

This is exactly what he was talking about in the video when he says that the situation at the end of season four feels like it hasn't changed since the end of season three.

That's a different subject to the bit I'm talking about. I'm saying there are two different issues here.

RWBY is a serial medium. It's released in chunks over a long period of time. "They're not showing the plotline I want to see!" is absolutely a valid criticism. If it was a novel or a movie or some other type of work that was presented as a single complete whole, then "wait until the end before you judge it" would be a reasonable point. But suggesting that you can't say "I didn't like season four because it didn't show me any of the things I wanted to see so it felt like a waste of time" is silly when wasting an entire season means it'll be another year (or more, if they don't address it next season either) before you get to see the part you're interested in.

It's absolutely not a valid criticism, and it is absolutely vital that, for some things, you simply have to wait for the end of the story before you can sensibly critique it. I have read stories that were split across multiple novels - trilogies, tetralogies, pentalogies, etc. Sometimes with years between the release of each novel.

Just because you might sit down and read a single novel in four or five hours or wait four years between the first book in the story and the final book in the story note , it doesn't change the fact that a story develops to have different strands appear and disappear at varying points of the storyline. It doesn't matter whether you're waiting four hours to see a plot thread or a character crop again or four years. The concept is the same, no matter the length of the story or the medium through which the story is told.

Waiting one year because that particular volume doesn't raise the subject in a work that is designed to span years? Not a problem. At the age of eleven, I was waiting two years from one novel until the next in the series could be published (and then several months on top of that again because I couldn't afford the hardback and had to wait for the paperback release). Waiting one year, at my age, is absolutely nothing.

I will certainly develop my own opinion about where different strands of the story appear and disappear and reappear, but only when the story is complete and I can see where they went from and where they ended up; and from everything I was ever taught in literature studies, it's the reasonable thing to do. As a result, I will always be adamant that you [generic] cannot sensibly discuss the structure of the storyline until all the pieces have been revealed and the entire storyline completed and that the length of the story - or how many years in real life - it spans during the publishing (serialisation) phase isn't an excuse to over-stuff a single novel (or, in this case, volume).

edited 29th May '17 4:32:19 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#46291: May 29th 2017 at 4:08:31 PM

Why not simply make Yang even more top heavy?

You know, because plot?

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#46293: May 29th 2017 at 4:34:54 PM

[up][up]Beach episode. Monty did say that Ruby surfing on the food tray during the food fight was foreshadowing, so that obviously means we're supposed to have a beach episode where the students all fight marine Grimm on surfboards and water-skis.

edited 29th May '17 4:35:51 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#46295: May 29th 2017 at 4:52:26 PM

If you watch a show for X and the show doesn't provide X for an entire season, you are well within your right to complain.

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Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#46296: May 29th 2017 at 5:01:09 PM

Well that really depends on what X is doesn't it? Certain factors are not necessarily central and as such would not be a part of every season or even part of most seasons. I mean, anyone can complain about whatever they want, but I don't think all complaints necessarily hold the same weight.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#46297: May 29th 2017 at 5:04:20 PM

I suppose. As an example, if you say that Spice And Wolf (an anime you absolutely need to watch) sucks because it doesn't provide more of the fight scenes the I'd have to ask just why in the world you watched the show long enough to get to one of the handful of fight scenes (if you want to call them that) throughout the entire series.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46298: May 29th 2017 at 5:23:36 PM

If your complaint is "not enough Neo" then no, that is not a complaint I feel the writers should in anyway take to heart.

More generally, if your complaint is about not enough focus on people or things you put more investment into that the show gave you reason to, that is also on you.

While there are areas they need to improve on, you aren't going to please everyone, and things like that strike me as a waste of time pandering to people instead of legit trying to improve.

edited 29th May '17 5:25:53 PM by LSBK

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#46299: May 29th 2017 at 5:30:05 PM

I get that Neo's (as of this moment) not really that important in the grand scheme of things, but I would at least like her to get a backstory of some sort.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#46300: May 29th 2017 at 5:41:20 PM

I watch RWBY for the fights and the characters. I was pretty well served.

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