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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45401: Feb 20th 2017 at 1:28:09 PM

Fight quality definitely went down, though I get how not everyone can tell.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45402: Feb 20th 2017 at 1:51:03 PM

I think whether the fight quality has gone down is different from whether the choreography has gotten worse. That can be a part of it, but it's not my main issue with fights I have problems with, if that makes sense.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#45403: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:16:21 PM

Which is why I suspect Jacques is actually going to suck at fighting. Can't pull the same trick thrice.

Given how Frank Baum portrayed him in his story, I won't be surprised if Jacques has huntsman training.

Besides, Jacques has been shown to fully comprehend the power of the PR machine, and being a trained huntsman would help him there. It would explain how he could fool Nicholas Schnee so well — it would look like Jacques was following in his footsteps.

I have seen people hoping he has some kind of freezing Semblance he used to make the statues around the house from Grimm he can release as a defense and hoping that Whitley is very skilled with the Schnee Semblance but that he just has no interest in using it or fighting.

Well, this has been my theory every since Volume 4, Episode 2:

In the Baum stories, Jack Frost had the power to freeze shadows. That allowed him to take control of the shadows and set them free from their owners.

Given that the Grimm have almost been described as shadows, and given that the frozen King Taijitu in the mansion is so detailed you can even see the saliva between its open jaws, my guess is that it's a real Grimm that's been frozen in place to look like a statue, and Jacques can activate it any time he wants.

I'm expecting Whitley to have inherited Jacques' abilities instead of the Schnee abilities. Jack Frost was the son of the Frost King, after all.

That would make the Schnee females capable of summoning frozen Grimm replicas to fight on their behalf while the Schnee males can take control of real Grimm to force them to fight on their behalf.

I just think the tragic loss of Monty hurt the show in general. there's a lot of spirit and amazing talent that was lost (especially in regards to the truly phenomenal and amazing fight scenes) with him.

I actually prefer the fight scenes now. In the past, the fight scenes were just a mess of motion and I couldn't figure out what had happened because it all blurred together. It was therefore neither amazing nor cool for me. It was just annoying.

I can actually follow the fights now, which I consider a vast improvement. That isn't to say I hated Monty's animation and have no criticisms about current fight scenes, it's just that I had more cons than pros in the past and currently I have more pros than cons.

But then, I'd never heard of Monty before I watched this show, and I had just enough time to watch the four trailers before the first episode aired, so I didn't have any preconceptions at all.

Judging by what I see in the fandom these days, I think I had the better bargain. I had no expectations to disappoint, and to be honest, when I first saw how rough the animation was back then, my expectations were so low, the show has so far exceeded them.

That should have been an amazing spectacle on par with or surpassing RWBY vs the Paladin from Vol 2 (which I'm not saying is the best fight but it should have invoked a similar feeling).

Out of curiosity, why does the point of the volume finale have to be a fight (especially a uniquely spectacular fight)?

Don't get me wrong, the Volume 4 finale isn't my favourite fight of the show by a long shot, but I don't see why the show automatically has to make a volume finale about a fight where that fight surpasses all other fights in the show. I also don't think the point of the Volume 4 was about the fight (well, not the physical fight anyway - the emotional impact on certain characters seemed to be much more relevant).

If I had to rate how I felt the Volume finales rank in terms of the fight, this would be my ranking:

  • Volume 1
  • Volume 3
  • Volume 4
  • Volume 2

If I had to rank in terms of plot line and character exploration, however, I'd probably rank as follows:

  • Volume 3
  • Volume 4
  • Volume 2
  • Volume 1 (the Penny fight turned out to be a major blunder for the storyline, as the creators discussed during airing of the Volume 2 episodes).

edited 20th Feb '17 4:42:19 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45404: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:19:22 PM

The Schnee Semblance isn't exactly a female only thing, though. Not unless Nicholas Schnee inexplicably didn't (doesn't?) have it.

edited 20th Feb '17 4:20:45 PM by LSBK

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#45405: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:32:35 PM

[up] I didn't say it was a female-only Semblance, I was just comparing Jacques and Whitley to Winter, Weiss (and presumably their mother and grandfather).

All I'm saying is, what if Jacques does have a trained Semblance, what if Whitley inherited Jacques' Semblance instead of the Schnee Semblance, and what if there's a striking (and creepy) contrast between the Semblance the two males have as compared to the Schnee Semblance (which makes my post a male/female contrast right now).

I'm working from the assumption that controlling Grimm is the kind of thing most people in Remnant might want to keep secret.

edited 20th Feb '17 4:34:43 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45406: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:35:05 PM

Maybe. But the Schnee blood seems to be one of those really thick fictional one where you wonder if the kids inherited anything from the other parent at all.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#45407: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:45:11 PM

[up]Yes, it does seem to be set up that way, and yet it also sets up a mystery about why Whitley wouldn't have inherited it.

Baum put Father Christmas and Jack Frost into conflict with each other, which seems to be the case in this show as well, and he did have quite a subversive interpretation of the sort of power Frost could potentially wield.

We've also got that reference from the manga that apparently the knight in the White Trailer was controlled by Grimm, and show has revealed that Jacques' mansion is, for some reason, full of statues of them.

Since Baum is the author of the Wizard of Oz books, I have chosen to speculate down this road because I think Frost's powers would work very well in the RWBY setting - and be particularly creepy given the existence of the Grimm.

edited 20th Feb '17 4:49:05 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45408: Feb 20th 2017 at 4:52:46 PM

I'm betting on him lying myself. But, what you said works too. Either that, or, like I mentioned before it's just to make him seem even pettier, which I can totally buy.

But, assuming that's not the case, I do buy him and Jacques as the type of people who confidentially say that fighting is beneath them because they actually can do it and choice not to, and not just being the more typical "He says it's beneath him because he's envious" or whatever. At least, Jacques comes off that way, to me.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#45409: Feb 20th 2017 at 5:00:14 PM

Yeah, I haven't ruled out Whitley having the Schnee Semblance and lying about it, I'm just exploring the above theory for a while.

I think Whitley was being honest when he said he wasn't jealous. He actually seemed surprised that Weiss thought he was. He came across as someone who was quite secure in their skin about the issue (whereas the way Weiss framed her question, and the entire conversation, suggested she's been much less confident in her own skin than her brother). It was like an 'I know the truth so I don't really care what you think the truth is' situation.

The conflict between Ironwood and Jacques does come across to me as Ironwood deeply underestimating Jacques. And, for all that Jacques is getting increasingly frustrated with Ironwood, it does seem to me that Jacques has been letting Ironwood keep underestimating him. But then, Ironwood has been in danger of heading into Jumping Off the Slippery Slope territory while Jacques has played the Jerkass Has a Point role in almost all of the encounters we've seen between the two men.

edited 20th Feb '17 5:03:43 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45410: Feb 20th 2017 at 5:10:18 PM

Regardless of your opinions on them in general, or this volume as a whole, which storyline do you think was the weakest relatively to the others? I'd have to say Weiss's.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45411: Feb 20th 2017 at 5:11:49 PM

Out of curiosity, why does the point of the volume finale have to be a fight (especially a uniquely spectacular fight)?
When the show decided the Nuckalee needed to fight Rwby in the finale of the season. Given how bland the fight was, I would have preferred it stayed a flashback monster.

edited 20th Feb '17 5:14:23 PM by VeryMelon

fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#45412: Feb 20th 2017 at 5:32:48 PM

Re: fight choreo Definitely declined in the cool factor and action choreo, but is a bit better about raising stakes. Which is a loss for me because I got into RWBY for the zipping around and beating monsters down.

[up] Yeah, the finale was going to be a fight because the Nuckelavee apparently stuck around Oniyuri all this time.

[up][up] Weiss! She just sat around at home until she decides to skedaddle. Her big moment of summoning the knight fell flat, then you have the times she conveniently stumbles into pertinent character conversations between her father and Ironwood. Among other things.

Yang would be second weakest on account of being a rather lukewarm lost-my-arm drama.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#45413: Feb 20th 2017 at 5:57:58 PM

re: animesque — I think the show's visual style has gotten less anime over time (the first season had some anime-style stuff like facefaults, characters going chibi-mode when they're excited, etc, which gradually got less and less prominent until it was basically gone entirely by the end of the third season), but the narrative structure has remained as classically shonen as ever.

re: Monty and fight quality — I generally agreed with the idea that RWBY's fights suffered from losing Monty, up until I did my rewatch. Having binged the whole thing more or less in a row, I changed my mind about that. The quality of the fights certainly doesn't drop off a cliff — not every fight in seasons three and four are winners, but that was true of seasons one and two as well, and seasons three and four have their share of legitimately awesome fights. I wasn't super thrilled about the Nuck fight, but the sea dragon was pretty good, and the fight against the gorilla-grimm in the volume four preview is one of my favorites in the entire franchise.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45414: Feb 20th 2017 at 6:00:21 PM

The finale doesn't need to be about the fight but the fight needs to be good. What made the Volume 3 finale so great wasn't any of the fights but sure as hell helped.

RWBY is, for all intents and purposes, an American made anime with video game influences. Specifically, it shared a lot of similarities with the fighting shounen genre- shows like Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, and the like. As such, I view it largely the way I'd view any of those shows or any other fighting shounen anime. Back when Monty was alive- and Volume 3 to an extent, the show delivered on the two things it promised from the very first trailer: Over-the-top fight scenes and awesome music. The fights were fast, fluid, fantastic, and sometimes delivered on good teamwork. While the rest of the show had its weaknesses, the fight scenes generally delivered on what you'd want and expect from this type of show. You say the fights were too fast for you and you couldn't keep up but, the way I see it, that's your problem. It's just something you apparently weren't used to.

However, in Volume 4, aside from Qrow VS Tyrian, the fights are pretty slow, the HSQ is at an all time low, and it feels like there's even less teamwork than in the previous volumes. Aside from that one, they are completely dull and a fighting shounen with boring fights generally isn't a fighting shounen worth watching. Since the fights were one of the only things that remained consistently good even when everything else usually wasn't, those dropping in quality means the entire work drops in quality since the rest of it isn't increasing in quality to compensate.

That's just the way I view things. If you don't agree with me, I don't particularly care.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#45415: Feb 20th 2017 at 6:03:56 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] I think the weakest storyline was probably Weiss's. I think it could have benefited from a bit more exploration. I think I know the point is to show us the development of the situation inside Atlas - the hint that Ironwood's so focussed on external threats that the real problem is going to come from inside - the Mantle workers that have issues with the SDC. Especially if a sealed Atlas is going to savage the SDC's profits so badly that the workers are the ones who suffer the brunt of it. With people so busy arguing over the fall of Beacon and what they should do next in response, they're not paying enough attention to what's going on inside their own borders.

In short, Atlas is a ticking time bomb.

Weiss... almost seems secondary to the quiet background build-up of the Atlas situation.

Hindsight may make me change my mind. If we do have no further PTSD issues with Yang, I'll end up regarding Yang as having had the weakest storyline. We'll see.

[up][up][up][up][up]My problem wasn't so much the fight as the appearance of it. I had suspected (given the animation quality of this show) that the relevation would not match the build-up to its full appearance. I am hoping we eventually see some genuinely nightmarish Grimm. Perhaps working with a more familiar system will get us there eventually?

[up]I'm actually not as big a fan of the music as many. Don't get me wrong, I do absolutely love some of the music ("Mirror Mirror" and "I Burn" from the trailers, the music that played during the Ozpin/Cinder fight, "Sacrifice", and "Bad Luck Charm" are some examples) but there's a fair bit of it that I'm not a fan of ("Gold", "Caffeine", "All Our Days").

Regarding the assumption you've chose to make about me, I am actually used to extremely fast fight sequences. Monty's not the first I've encountered, this was simply the first example of his work I'd encountered. I didn't like Monty's style and even with slower frames to see what's going on, it was blurred and choppy in places.

I have no problem, what I have is a preference. My preference is different to yours. That's hardly surprising; we're different people and it's impossible for one person to appeal to the entire world.

edited 20th Feb '17 6:23:34 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#45416: Feb 20th 2017 at 7:55:05 PM

@Zelenal: The show also has a fair amount of Avatar The Last Airbender in its genes, at least in terms of the characters and on a certain level the setting.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45417: Feb 20th 2017 at 7:57:48 PM

[up] ... Eeeeeeeh, I'm not seeing it.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45418: Feb 20th 2017 at 7:57:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]Coming off as bit rude there, don't you think?

[up][up]You think so? I don't see it, care to elaborate one why you feel that way?

edited 20th Feb '17 7:58:48 PM by LSBK

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45419: Feb 20th 2017 at 7:59:17 PM

[up] In this instance, I don't particularly care.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#45420: Feb 20th 2017 at 7:59:32 PM

Edit: Nevermind, response confusion. Carry on.

That being said: Volume 4 was really a Breather Season in all honesty. I have a feeling Volume 5 will pick right back up with the awesomeness.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:01:07 PM by BlackSunNocturne

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45421: Feb 20th 2017 at 8:00:43 PM

[up][up]I don't really think public discourse cares if you care.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45422: Feb 20th 2017 at 8:02:17 PM

[up] Again, don't care. Sometimes you're just out of fucks to give.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45423: Feb 20th 2017 at 8:04:54 PM

Mm.

Well, either way, I second the thought that a lot of Monty Oum's fight sequences looked like they blurred together when they really shouldn't. Maybe part of that was the program being used, I don't know, but it's one of the reason I don't consider it to be as appealing as most people make it out to be.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:05:21 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#45424: Feb 20th 2017 at 8:15:37 PM

@LSBK: In terms of characters, Jaune was seemingly inspired/based on Sokka, right down to Word of God invoking the comparison and volume 4 lampshading it. Then you have Cinder who is increasingly looking like a Composite Character of Azula and Zuko. Those are the two biggest examples character wise, though I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to see more creep in with time.

Setting wise, while the four kingdoms of RWBY aren't as strongly correlated with a particular element as the nations of ATLAS, they do have a seasonal theme which is itself evocative of elements. Anima/Mistral's visual style in particular is reminiscient of Avatar, though more by way of Legend Of Korra than ATLA. There's also another level of resemblance that I can't quite put my finger on, though the fact that both are heavily anime inspired western series certainly contributes to that feeling. It might be something to do with the cinematography as well, though I'm really not knowledgeable enough about that sort of stuff to say what it is that stands out to me.

edited 20th Feb '17 8:24:25 PM by CaptainCapsase

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45425: Feb 20th 2017 at 9:04:01 PM

I'm still not seeing it.

For starters, Sokka was legitimately funny and clever, often proving highly useful despite not having powers. Jaune is neither of those things.

For crying out loud, his master plan at the beginning of Volume 4 is to hit it harder.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

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