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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44826: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:02:44 PM

Which happens approximately all the time?

What kind of shows do you watch, friend?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44827: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:03:06 PM

Evidently it was here. That other works usually don't follow through doesn't mean it doesn't count as a hint (along with the other things that were going on and I think statements made by people working on it).

Edit: Stupid pagetopper.

edited 1st Feb '17 12:04:02 PM by LSBK

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44828: Feb 1st 2017 at 2:59:33 PM

for some reason i never felt like the escalation in volume 3 was like xanatos roulette. i think it's because while our plucky protagonists were thwarting the bad guys in volume 1 and 2, they never won with conviction. Like what Qrow was saying about how they only almost stopped the train. The mood was uplifting afterward, but they technically failed to protect everyone.

Cinder and co's also been shown as scarily competent throughout volumes 1 and 2, so the fact that they mostly got their way didn't feel like it came out of left field.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44829: Feb 1st 2017 at 6:14:23 PM

The problem isn't that the villains won, it's that they won because things happened in certain ways even though they had no influence over those outcomes.

The plan required Yang to shoot Mercury in the leg after their match was over. They used Emerald's semblance to make Yang think Mercury was attacking her in order to get her to do so. Except any number of other things could have happened... 1) she might have dodged, blocked, or taken the hit instead of counterattacking, which means the plan fails because she didn't attack Mercury; 2) she might have shot him somewhere other than the leg, in which case the plan succeeds but Mercury is seriously injured, possibly dead, since his aura was depleted; 3) she might have counterattacked by punching or kicking instead of shooting, in which case the plan fails because she'd be swinging at empty air; 4) Emerald can only hold illusions up for a couple people at once, so if more than that are ever inspecting Mercury's "injury", then at least one of them sees a metal prosthetic instead of flesh and blood, and the plan fails.

There are a million ways for the "use illusion to get Yang to shoot Mercury in the leg" plan to go wrong, none of which are things that Cinder & co can influence, and yet it all happens in exactly the one and only precise way it had to for their plan to work. And that's just one example of things that went in their favor like that, but a whole string of them happen in succession.

In the Penny vs Pyrrha match, Emerald is in the stands despite the fact that she's supposed to have left for Haven already. Fair enough, she needs to be around in order to use her semblance on Pyrrha. Except that she's sitting out in the open and no one noticed her or said "hey, weren't you supposed to be heading back to Haven already?" except Ruby. Ruby twigged to the fact that something odd was going on and got up to leave, but Mercury (who's also supposed to be in Haven, plus his leg is supposed to be shot) intercepts her. An earlier scene had Cinder saying Mercury was supposed to lay low so no one noticed him hanging around with a conspicuously un-shot leg. Apparently "loitering in employees only areas of the stadium" constitutes "laying low", and no one noticed him at any point? Then Mercury and Ruby fight, and Mercury is able to delay her long enough to keep her from interfering with the Pyrrha/Penny match despite the fact that Ruby's semblance is super-speed. In the meantime, no one stumbles across them, despite the fact that they're throwing down in a public corridor. Then Emerald does her "get someone to do exactly what we need them to do via illusions" trick again (except it makes even less sense this time, because Pyrrha uses her semblance to push away what she thinks is an entire cloud of flying swords, but somehow it doesn't affect swords' metal cables or Penny's metal body, so instead of getting shoved away Penny gets wrapped up in the cables and sliced into pieces).

So basically, their plan requires 1) Yang to react in a single specific way to Emerald's illusion, 2) no one to notice Emerald being at the match instead of in Haven, 3) no one to notice Mercury being in the stadium instead of in Haven, 3.5) Mercury to stop Ruby from telling anyone that something weird is going on, without getting caught being where he shouldn't be, 4) Pyrrha to react in a single specific way to Emerald's illusion, 5) the mechanics of Pyrrha's semblance to work selectively, 6) Penny, who once stopped a speeding truck dead and only scratched the paint on her hands, to be torn apart by her own cabling despite her aura still being active and her body being made of metal.

They had no way to influence any of those things, and yet they all went exactly the way they needed to for the plan to work. That's why it's a Gambit Roulette.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44830: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:12:45 PM

So basically, their plan requires 1) Yang to react in a single specific way to Emerald's illusion, 2) no one to notice Emerald being at the match instead of in Haven, 3) no one to notice Mercury being in the stadium instead of in Haven, 3.5) Mercury to stop Ruby from telling anyone that something weird is going on, without getting caught being where he shouldn't be, 4) Pyrrha to react in a single specific way to Emerald's illusion, 5) the mechanics of Pyrrha's semblance to work selectively, 6) Penny, who once stopped a speeding truck dead and only scratched the paint on her hands, to be torn apart by her own cabling despite her aura still being active and her body being made of metal.

1. Based on Yang's personality and what they've seen of her, how she's going to react is a pretty safe bet. Even without that, they didn't really only on this instance to stir things up (which actually comes off as a bit odd to me, but that's a different matter). But really, where she attacked him didn't really matter. As long as she did, it's just her word against his and we saw how that worked out, what with everyone seeing it and all.

2. Is iffy but they can just handwave it as saying that Emerald stayed behind for whatever reason. Mercury going back home doesn't mean his entire team has to, even if that wouldn't be surprising.

3. Cinder told him to stay put and out of sight so that's just him disobeying orders for no apparent reason. That bothered me as well.

3.5. Not really sure why you made this a semi-separate point but see my response to three.

4. It wasn't very specific, they just expected her to react in a defensive way to keep all of the hundreds of blades she saw from coming at her. Like with 1, it's a pretty safe bet how she's going to react in that situation.

5. I honestly don't understand what you mean here.

6. Eh, that's also a little iffy. Like, I doubt they actually expected that specifically to happen and more for Phyrra's power to fuck her up, which, again, is a pretty safe bet. I don't think it matters how strong Penny's aura is if Phyrra's power can directly affect what her body is made of. Even before she got torn to pieces it seemed like Phyrra's wave of "polarity" had an adverse effect on her. Also, you're surprised Phyrra's attack has more force than a truck?

So, yes, a lot of this is assumption, but they're much safer assumptions than you're implying and the odds of things going they way they won't are still higher than things going, at least unilaterally, south.

But even without that, you're assuming they didn't have any other contingency plans. Worse comes to worse they can probably just bring in the White Fang and those Grimm earlier, Neo can do her thing and set free Torchwich, and boom. Point being, even if none of the above went their way, there was still going to be the heavy panic they wanted. They just wanted to make it as bad as possible.

edited 1st Feb '17 7:18:40 PM by LSBK

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#44831: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:20:39 PM

They pretty much knew what Yang was more likely to do. Her previous match in the doubles round is probably the point they decided to use her. Her semblance and temper made her the perfect target because the doubles round showed that she is known for having anger problems.

They have been rigging who is fighting who from at least the doubles round, but probably even sooner considering JNPR gets a location that gives them an advantage and Emerald acts as if the outcome is predetermined and Sun's team gets essentially gets the worse location possible.

Emerald really only has to just not stand out. She is sitting in a large crowd of people chances of someone picking her out is really slim. It is essentially the reason Mercury was made to stay behind. He was actually in the fight and the actual 'victim'. Someone would notice him, but Emerald has a decent chance of being unnoticed and even if someone did what are they going to do by the time they can say anything things went to heck and they have a student revealed to be a robot.

In regards to Mercury he didn't listen, but he also managed to at least not walk around in a more open area. He is probably the type that is not keen on sitting around doing nothing. Chances are high he was not getting seen during the match though since the hall was empty at the time.

edited 1st Feb '17 7:23:37 PM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44832: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:41:24 PM

The part that really shits me with the illusion against Yang is that the reality we see doesn't match up with the illusion. She doesn't punch in the same place! Couldn't they at least get that right?

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#44833: Feb 2nd 2017 at 12:45:58 AM

Clearly Cinder and her crew need to follow the formula of Fairy Tail villains :v

I kid, I kid, I kid with that...or am I? Point being while Cinder did seem to have Xehanort-tier scheming in the end not everything went perfect for her otherwise she wouldn't be nearly mute, blind in one eye, and having scars covering her body.

Just Makima.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#44834: Feb 2nd 2017 at 12:50:39 AM

Xehanort-tier scheming
It's not Xehanort-tier unless you have Time Travel bullshit, several different Xanatos Gambits spanning over a decade of planning, and 5+ versions of yourself running around.

Emperordaein Grant us eyes from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Grant us eyes
#44835: Feb 2nd 2017 at 3:03:51 AM

[up][up]It's Terumi level planning. Where everything goes right until you get almost killed, and then return to become the edgiest Gundam in the world.

It does baffle me how RWBY went to the effort of building up, and teasing a villain trio with rivalries against each of the main cast... And then they went out of the way to have them not only barely interact with their supposed counterparts, but barely even fight them period, and they've been completely sidelined for a new group of villains with 0 built up matchups to the main cast.

A corpse should be left well enough alone...
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44836: Feb 2nd 2017 at 3:44:29 AM

I mean, Vol. 2 opening featured Junior and Twins as prominent villains. >.>

Plus, for all it's worth, all fights between RWBY and CMEA (with Adam filling in for Neo) were actually in Vol. 3 or earlier (Weiss v. Emerald an exception).

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#44837: Feb 2nd 2017 at 4:08:41 AM

I wonder if we should count Ruby vs. Cinder in that. It happened, but we didn't actually see it. Still a major point of contention for me given that could have used Combat Breakdown to justify Ruby defeating Cinder.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44838: Feb 2nd 2017 at 4:18:20 AM

I mean, Ruby v. Cinder happened in Vol. 2 already, however brief.

Emperordaein Grant us eyes from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Grant us eyes
#44839: Feb 2nd 2017 at 4:18:39 AM

I would have happily had over half of Pyrrha vs Cinder chopped out if it meant we got an onscreen Berserker Ruby vs Cinder fight.

A corpse should be left well enough alone...
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44840: Feb 2nd 2017 at 6:32:08 AM

She doesn't punch in the same place!

Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me about that. Yeah, that was stupid. Also having her apparently walk over to him in the video.

At most, I think it could be said the exact presentation of the illusion left something to be desired, but actually having Yang be the one to do it too made sense. And that's more of an out of story problem than an in story one, I think.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44841: Feb 2nd 2017 at 7:21:00 AM

Based on Yang's personality and what they've seen of her, how she's going to react is a pretty safe bet.
Even if they're pulling a kind of Batman Gambit on Yang because they know she gets angry so she's likely to lash out, it still requires her to lash out in a very specific way (shooting at the illusion such that it hits the real Mercury in the leg), which they have no way of influencing or predicting. If Yang decides to punch him in the face? Plan fails. If she decided to kick him in the balls? Plan fails. If she decides to shoot him, but her timing is a little different, so she misses the real Mercury? Plan mostly fails; there wouldn't be nearly as much hostility from the crowd in that case. If she decides to shoot him, but her timing is a little different so she hits the real Mercury in the face? Plan succeeds, but Mercury is dead; probably not worth it.

2. Is iffy but they can just handwave it as saying that Emerald stayed behind for whatever reason. Mercury going back home doesn't mean his entire team has to, even if that wouldn't be surprising.
(Point two was no one noticing Emerald, who was supposed to have returned to Haven already, being in the stands during the Penn vs Pyrrha fight.)

If they had just said "Mercury went back to Haven, but the rest of his team stayed for the rest of the tournament", that would have been fine and there wouldn't have been anything weird about Emerald being there. But they specifically said that Emerald had returned to Haven with Mercury. It seems to be Rooser Teeth committing an unforced error, here — I suspect that they wanted to have Ruby notice something was amiss so they could have her try to act on her suspicions, but it just opens a plot hole as to why Ruby was the only one to notice that something was amiss.

3. Cinder told him to stay put and out of sight so that's just him disobeying orders for no apparent reason. That bothered me as well.

3.5. Not really sure why you made this a semi-separate point but see my response to three.

(Point three was Mercury hanging out in non-public areas of the tournament stadium; 3.5 was he and Ruby fighting wiithout anyone stumbling across them.)

I didn't take it as Mercury disobeying orders — Emerald seems to notice Ruby spotting her, so I assumed she called Mercury in as backup. Unfortunately, he shows up in the time it takes Ruby to stand up and leave the stands, so he clearly was already in the stadium, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a guy who's supposed to be lying low.

As far as the second bit, I listed it separately because "Mercury sneaking around the stadium without getting caught" and "Mercury brawling in a public hallway without getting caught" are both variations of "Mercury not getting caught" but in rather different circumstances, so I figured it was worth mentioning but not worth listing as an entirely separate point.

4. It wasn't very specific, they just expected her to react in a defensive way to keep all of the hundreds of blades she saw from coming at her. Like with 1, it's a pretty safe bet how she's going to react in that situation.
(Point four was that they needed Pyrrha to react in a specific way to Emerald's illusion.)

They needed her to react in a way that, at the very least, revealed that Penny was a robot. Mercury's comment to Ruby (about a polarity semblance and a metal body not mixing well) seems to suggest they intended Pyrrha's semblance to reveal Penny's secret. But if Pyrrha's defensive shove with her powers had just thrown Penny out of the ring (see point five) or something, it wouldn't have necessarily revealed anything. People just would have thought that she got pulled by the cables attached to her swords. Emerald et al had no way of knowing that Pyrrha would react in a way that revealed Penny was a robot, much less in a way that would do that while simultaneously dismembering Penny.

Alternatives that Pyrrha had that wouldn't have revealed Penny being a robot: grabbing the swords and holding them in place instead of blasting them away, nudging them aside so that they hit the ground around her instead of pushing all of them as hard as she can (this is especially noteworthy because in season two, Mercury notes that Pyrrha prefers to use her semblance subtly, so dodging the sword-swarm while using her semblance to push away anything that she couldn't quite dodge would be very in-character for her), counterattacking against Penny before she can actually get the swarm attack off, realizing that she's colossally screwed and forfeiting instead of risking her life by trying to deal with that attack, etc etc etc.

5. I honestly don't understand what you mean here.
(Point five was that Pyrrha's semblance was working selectively in that scene.)

Pyrrha's semblance is that she can control metal, Magneto style. Emerald projected an illusion of a thousandish swords all bearing down on her. Pyrrha responded by pushing against all of them at once in order to keep them from skewering her. It was an untargeted "wave" of power, not individually grabbing and throwing each sword (you can actually see the black glow visual effect of Pyrrha's semblance moving across the screen in a wave). Penny is also made of metal but she isn't shoved away (which would have prevented the sword cables from cutting through her). Because reasons. And again, this despite Mercury just a few minutes earlier specifically saying "polarity + metal body = bad".

6. Eh, that's also a little iffy. Like, I doubt they actually expected that specifically to happen and more for Phyrra's power to fuck her up, which, again, is a pretty safe bet. I don't think it matters how strong Penny's aura is if Phyrra's power can directly affect what her body is made of. Even before she got torn to pieces it seemed like Phyrra's wave of "polarity" had an adverse effect on her. Also, you're surprised Phyrra's attack has more force than a truck?
(Point six was Penny being cut to pieces by her sword's cabling despite her aura still being up and her body being made of metal.)

Pyrrha didn't directly affect Penny. Penny doesn't move an inch, despite the visual effect of Pyrrha's semblance rushing past her. She looks surprised and sort of half-crouches with her hands on her chest, but it's not clear if she's just ducking under the swords that are flying past her, or she doesn't recognize what Pyrrha's semblance is and is trying to defend against it, or what. But what definitely doesn't happen is Penny being thrown backward by a blast that moves metal objects, despite the fact that Penny is a metal object.

More to the point, though, Penny being cut apart by her sword cables seems ludicrous when her her aura is still up and her body is itself made of metal. I suppose you can handwave it by saying that Pyrrha just pushed that hard on the swords, but in that case it's just that much stupider that Penny wasn't moved by the blast. Penny's already demonstrated that she's really tough (see: truck), so even if she got wrapped up in the cables and wasn't pushed by Pyrrha's semblance, I'd expect either the cables to snap or Penny to be carried off by the force, not the cables to cut her in half.

edited 2nd Feb '17 7:24:39 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44842: Feb 2nd 2017 at 8:10:03 AM

mercury illusion presents his leg first. If you are doing a riposte, you’re not likely going to overreach for another body part in order to keep yourself safe.

I took Penny’s crouch to mean her hard drives were getting scrambled because she definitely has spinning disks inside her

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#44843: Feb 2nd 2017 at 9:28:17 AM

Exactly both Emerald and Mercury have barely appeared or even spoke since volume 3. What happened they can't afford Mercury's voice actor now? Also where is Neo damnit.

Just Makima.
WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#44844: Feb 2nd 2017 at 10:58:01 AM

One of my theories is that Penny is much heavier than she looks. She stopped a truck with her bare hands, as well as her glomping of Ruby leaving the latter in discomfort (albeit, that could be chalked up to Penny having Super-Strength).

Also, abiding by real world physics, magnetic fields get weaker the further you are from the source. The swords get the full brunt of Pyrrha's (E?)MP, and Penny, standing further back and possibly weighing more than the perceived storm of laserblades, doesn't get sent flying.


As for Emerald sticking around to Mind Screw Pyrrha, at least change your attire. You have green hair and an attention-grabbing outfit for crying out loud!


wild mass guessMercury's Semblance causes plans to go according to plan. tonguewild mass guess

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#44845: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:12:31 AM

[up]I think Penny being heavier than she looks is obvious. Especially since when she glomped Ruby, she caused them both to hit the ground with an audible thud.

Like, say she's made of similar metal to Terminators, which is lightweight and very durable. She'd still be clocking in around 300 pounds or more.

edited 2nd Feb '17 11:22:37 AM by BlackSunNocturne

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44846: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:18:08 AM

The type of sound the "thud" made is more important than it just being audible.

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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#44847: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:21:05 AM

[up]Loud, dull and slightly metallic. Like someone dropping a large piece of metal wrapped in cloth.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44848: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:21:51 AM

Mercury's Semblance causes plans to go according to plan.
Sure, why the hell not? If Crow can have a bad luck semblance, then Mercury can have a good luck one. Makes more sense than just about every other explanation.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#44849: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:23:43 AM

mercury's semblance makes everything go according to keikaku

note: keikaku means plan

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44850: Feb 2nd 2017 at 11:39:32 AM

" it still requires her to lash out in a very specific way (shooting at the illusion such that it hits the real Mercury in the leg), which they have no way of influencing or predicting. "

Mercury ilusion actually have him jumping on yang try to kick her, unless yang is a moron or to skill to do anything else but punch the leg is asking to much, really your complain is pretty much "Yang could do ANTYHING, therefore the plan is bullshit"

"but it just opens a plot hole as to why Ruby was the only one to notice that something was amiss."

only ruby team know here and only she was in the stadium in that moment and having emerald there is not much of a stress, emerald could offer any excuse.

"Alternatives that Pyrrha had that wouldn't have revealed Penny being a robot"

by that them Cinder plan to take amber power is flawed because ANYTHING could happen, Phyrra was suffring stress and Emerald play a part, if someone like her quiting in the end or do something instead of pushin her power by accident since weird, again your argument border into "she could do thing diferent, but she didnt therefore is forced"

Also, the foreshowing with yat, the diference is that everyone thought it was Neo

" If she'd already made up her mind on what she wanted to hear, then why is she asking him for advice about it?"

she want to tell jaune but I dont same think she coudnt, is typical superhero stuff, in fact I like this waaaaaay better than volume 2

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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