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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#44801: Jan 31st 2017 at 10:38:00 PM

Well she wanted to be strong, powerful and feared and was loyal to Salem in the hope of achieving all that. Instead she's found herself weak, coddled and disrespected as a consequence of her service to Salem's goals, she gets no respect from her peers at the council of evil, her patron isn't as high on her as she'd let others believe and isn't providing any positive reinforcement.

In a related topic, what do people think happened to Cinder's eye? The scar that we can see is unusual and is hard to see as happening in a single strike, although it could just be there because it looks cool. My personal theory at the moment is that Ruby took Cinder's eye out with the tip of Cresent Rose's scythe and the two blades at the back end of the head are what made the x scar we see. My previous theory was that the Silver Eye powers boiled her eye in it's socket.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44802: Jan 31st 2017 at 10:44:22 PM

So remember when I was rewatching the series? I got busy after the first two seasons, but finally got around to rewatching season three. In no particular order:

  • The opening song gets progressively longer each season. Season one was about 30 seconds. Season two a minute. Season three is 80 seconds (and in the latter half of the season, they start adding ads at the beginning that make it even longer before the actual episode starts). Season four, for the record, is about 90 seconds. No wonder I started skipping through them...
  • The tournament fights are actually pretty good. Monty died before season three premiered, and I have no idea how much (if any) work he did on it before he died, but the fights in season three are still damn entertaining in any case. The fight with Yang and Weiss vs the jazz trumpeter and the ditzy rollerblading rave girl is still the strangest thing in the entire damn series, though.
  • Worth noting the differences in how Ruby and Jaune are presented as team leaders, as demonstrated in their respective four-man team fights. Ruby calls out ship names fighter combinations to indicate who should attack (eg, "checkmate" = black and white = Blake and Weiss) but doesn't actually do much strategizing other than that. Jaune actually dictates his team's tactics (like having them take cover from the sniper fire, and sending Nora up to get supercharged by the thunderstorm) but when he tries to call fighter combinations like Ruby did, it doesn't work because being Jaune is suffering his teammates hadn't paid attention when he told them what the combos were.
  • Even after rewatching the first two seasons, I'd sort of forgotten that Crow didn't actually appear until season three. He's mentioned in passing earlier than that, but he doesn't actually show up until season three. Given how much of a role he has, it's weird to think about how little he's been around compared to everyone else.
  • Speaking of, I'd also forgotten how badly Crow and Winter both come off in their introduction. They're both assholes, basically. Fun characters, but not very good people. They pulled Crow back from that pretty quick, but Winter hasn't had enough screentime to recover from that initial impression.
  • Even knowing it's coming, Emerald using her semblance to trick Yang into attacking Mercury when he was down is still bullshit. The fact that they didn't foreshadow it at all (with the exception of a brief instance of Emerald using her semblance against Coco during their match — but it wasn't at all clear what happened there, either, so the audience has no reason to connect the two incidents) just makes it come off as plot device bullshit. It runs smack into Sanderson's First Law, basically. I get that they were trying to make the audience as confused and upset as Yang, but the audience (unlike Yang) can call bullshit on bad writing. I think a more effective way to do it would have been to show things from the bystander's point of view, so you suddenly see Yang turn and attack Mercury for no reason, rather than seeing Mercury attacking Yang and then suddenly not. Another possibility would be to show it from Emerald's point of view so we know what's going on immediately, rather than leaving the audience fuming at the blatant plot device.
  • That said, I'm not actually sure if Mercury threw the fight or not. He doesn't seem to be holding back against Yang, and his aura is definitely depleted for real (we get a shot of the force field effect around him going down, not just his aura meter on the scoreboard dropping to zero), so he may have been going all out against her and simply lost, so they did Emerald's trick. Doing that trick during the final match would have been even more effective at riling up the crowd than doing it at the start of the one-on-one round, so it makes sense. Of course, they're still relying on Mercury's opponent to counterattack against the illusion-attack rather than block or dodge, and relying on that attack to hit Mercury in his artificial leg rather than in the goddamn face while his aura was down, so it's still bullshit either way. Goddamn, I really hated that plot point.
  • Important point on Cinder's motivation: episode 7 opens with her saying "I want to be powerful. I want to be feared." That's as much as we've ever gotten on it, as far as I know. She also calls the chaos in Vale during the Fall of Beacon both "beautiful" and "horrendous" in the same breath and definitely seems pleased with herself for causing it. (Mercury also seems rather excited by events, which I didn't recall; only Emerald is less than thrilled with it.)
  • Amber's powers are a lot more varied than we ever see Cinder using. Cinder sticks almost entirely to fire. Amber uses fire, wind, ice, and lightning, at the very least.
  • The conversation between Jaune and Pyrrha is dumb. Pyrrha explains things in such a way that Jaune has no idea what she's actually asking, then freaks out when he answers in a way she doesn't like? If she'd already made up her mind on what she wanted to hear, then why is she asking him for advice about it? The whole thing just feels like the writers being vindictive, not like a natural outcome of events.
  • Then we go through a series of contortions where logic and reason go out the window so the villains can win. I could rant on this point for a while (and have, in the past) but I won't bother this time. tldr heroes can do nothing and villains win, deal with it nerds. Sigh.
  • Fights are still pretty awesome, though, at least.
  • Where the hell did the grimm dragon actually come from? It bursts up from underground Mountain Glenn. Was it buried there the whole time, and no one noticed? Was it spawned there right then? Did it somehow travel there unnoticed before revealing itself?
  • Roman remains awesome. Getting punked by a plot griffon after he and Neo take Ruby apart was lame.
  • Oh hey, Cardin shows up for a few seconds during the Fall of Beacon. I thought he'd dropped off the face of the plot after season one and was never seen again.
  • Ozpin sees Jaune (and his sword) while they're trying to transfer Amber's power to Pyrrha, but doesn't mention anything. If it was another relic (as I think we're all assuming his cane is) you'd think he'd have reacted. Or, hell, asked to borrow it, seeing as he was about to throw down with Cinder.
  • Silver-eyes plot device is still dumb.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#44803: Jan 31st 2017 at 11:32:32 PM

Also Adam's the worst Darth Vader impersonator ever.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#44804: Jan 31st 2017 at 11:36:29 PM

Emerald's powers are demonstrated in the previous fight (Yatsuhashi is knocked out by Mercury and then Coco sees Yatsuhashi walk up to her as she's fighting Emerald) and outlined in the song that was playing at the time ("I'll steal til your blind and defeat you from inside your mind"). The episode right after Yang VS Mercury even has Emerald use her powers repeatedly to make it obvious what it is.

The real flaw here is that Coco somehow didn't hear the announcer say that Yatsuhashi had been ringed out.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#44805: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:13:37 AM

Even knowing it's coming, Emerald using her semblance to trick Yang into attacking Mercury when he was down is still bullshit. The fact that they didn't foreshadow it at all (with the exception of

That statement is objectively false. You said they didn't foreshadow it at all and then immediately contradicted yourself and said that they did foreshadow it which makes the first part of your statement a lie. You should have said it was poorly foreshadowed which is an opinion but by it's nature can't be true or false.

I don't know why that bugs me, it just does. Semantic nitpicking for the win!

Onto the meat of that point though I disagree (shocking, but there's not a lot of discussion value in me talking about most of your post since I either agree with it, disagree but think it's just a matter of preference, or is a simple statement of fact). I think it had the perfect amount of foreshadowing; we see it in use once enough to demonstrate what it is and give us some clues about it and how to recognise it, but it's subtle enough that we don't realise what has happened until after it's already done, which is the whole point of a Plot Twist. Knowing off the bat the first time that it was an illusion makes the scene weaker because we know that the characters are making a mistake and it becomes frustrating to watch.

That said, I'm not actually sure if Mercury threw the fight or not.

I go with him throwing the fight. It seemed to be the setup to the big finale to get the Grimm's attention directed at the stadium to begin with, then pull them in Penny turning into quarters. Mercury has some skill at keeping his intentions hidden when fighting as shown when he fights Pyrrha to figure out her semblance and then quits, and Cinder set that match personally after we know she's been plotting. Given his level of precision with his shots to the point he can shoot a scroll out of Ruby's hand without hurting her in the process and that a person's aura levels are shown on a giant board I buy that he can make a fight look convincing while still throwing it. Hell in general most people when throwing fights put the effort in to hide that they've thrown it.

Where the hell did the grimm dragon actually come from? It bursts up from underground Mountain Glenn. Was it buried there the whole time, and no one noticed?

The people of Mountain Glenn made the opposite mistake to the the dwarves of Moria. They didn't dig deep enough to find the Dragon. I assume he's been there all along, waiting for the right moment to strike like the Goliaths.

@ Zelenal:

The real flaw here is that Coco somehow didn't hear the announcer say that Yatsuhashi had been ringed out.

Yatsuhashi wasn't ringed out, he was knocked out and she did hear that. She sees the illusion of him come up behind her, then hears the Port say he's been taken out and when she turns around again he's gone.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#44806: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:16:51 AM

I don't think outlined in a song should count for anything as that's actually not part of the plot. It's bonus material that's optional.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#44807: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:25:36 AM

Seeing as how it's the song that's played during that fight and the line I quoted is the final line of the "TV version", I feel it counts just fine.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#44808: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:39:50 AM

Merc definitely threw the fight by hitting her with exactly enough shots to get her aura at right above knockout level and trigger her semblence.

But he also nearly got legitimately knocked out of the ring at the beginning because he seemed to miscalulate her, after which he boosts himself back in and immediately starts getting serious and knocking her aura down.

So he threw the fight, but she was closer to his level than he expected.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#44809: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:41:47 AM

All the songs count as Jeff Williams is one of the creative heads and writes his lyrics to match what's going on, as well as give little background details to things.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44810: Feb 1st 2017 at 5:44:54 AM

Roman remains awesome. Getting punked by a plot griffon after he and Neo take Ruby apart was lame.

Finally, someone gets it.

(last page)

Cinder too str8... I mean strong

Never felt like they made her too invincible so, eh. Just from the way she looked in Vol 4's opening you could tell that she was about to go through Break the Haughty. I think the real problem is how much you're willing to believe Cinder could be sympathetic.

edited 1st Feb '17 7:29:43 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44811: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:10:39 AM

The conversation between Jaune and Pyrrha is dumb. Pyrrha explains things in such a way that Jaune has no idea what she's actually asking, then freaks out when he answers in a way she doesn't like? If she'd already made up her mind on what she wanted to hear, then why is she asking him for advice about it? The whole thing just feels like the writers being vindictive, not like a natural outcome of events.

Because people never ask people things to reassure them of things they think they have to do, and they always react rationally when incredibly life changing/terrifying opportunities present themselves. Come on, man.

I get where you're coming from for the most part, but, on this point (and the Mercury/Yang point), I just have to say you're actively looking for things to complain about now.

edited 1st Feb '17 7:12:49 AM by LSBK

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44812: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:33:11 AM

This is tvtropes so I’m going to be pedantic, but the illusion is not a violation of Sanderson’s first. The first is about establishing rules so the protagonists can use them to resolve the plot. It specifically states that mysterious powers are allowed and encouraged to make things worse for the heroes.

You’re looking for the third law which says you should build on what you’ve established before adding new mechanics.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44813: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:35:22 AM

[up]Which is still a fairly common complaint about RWBY, I think. One I'd agree with, though for different reasons than for what I've seen.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44814: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:51:46 AM

I don't know why that bugs me, it just does. Semantic nitpicking for the win!
You can't isolate portions of the claim and judge them individually. I said it wasn't foreshadowed except for one thing that did a poor job of foreshadowing. Pouncing on "it wasn't foreshadowed" and ignoring the second part of the sentence is disingenuous.

If I say that no even numbers are prime except for the number two, you can't say "HA! You're WRONG! Two is an even number that's prime!" because I literally already said that.

I think it had the perfect amount of foreshadowing; we see it in use once enough to demonstrate what it is and give us some clues about it and how to recognise it, but it's subtle enough that we don't realise what has happened until after it's already done, which is the whole point of a Plot Twist.
A good plot twist takes information that the audience already has and uses it to move the plot in an unexpected direction. A bad plot twist moves the plot in an unexpected direction by doing something the audience didn't know was possible. Emerald's semblance lands firmly in the latter category. "Coco saw her teammate when her teammate wasn't actually there during her fight with Emerald" is not enough information to make "Yang is tricked into disgracing herself by an illusion" not an Ass Pull. We have no idea what the significance of Coco seeing things is until after the fact. It doesn't work has foreshadowing because it's not a piece of information that we can use to speculate on future events, it's a mystery that we have to wait for more information to solve.

And besides that, there's all the other things wrong with that plot point that I mentioned. If Yang had blocked, dodged, or been caught off guard and let illusion-Mercury's attack land, the plan wouldn't have worked. If the timing of her counter had been different, she would have shot Mercury in the face instead of the leg (which, with his aura down, would have killed him).

Ultimately, the point is that the scene breaks Willing Suspension of Disbelief because it requires the villains to have abilities that the audience hasn't been adequately informed of (making the sudden appearance of said abilities seem arbitrary and unsatisfying) and the heroes to react in specific ways that the villains can't control (making the success of their plan seem like the result of narrative convenience rather than a natural outcome of their actions).

Knowing off the bat the first time that it was an illusion makes the scene weaker because we know that the characters are making a mistake and it becomes frustrating to watch.
No, I was furious at the scene when it first came out, for all the reasons I've outlined here. It's not just that rewatching it makes it worse. I very nearly didn't bother with season four because of how much I disliked the latter half of season three.

Merc definitely threw the fight by hitting her with exactly enough shots to get her aura at right above knockout level and trigger her semblence.
Alternatively: he was legitimately trying to defeat her and she survived with just enough aura left to stay in the fight and unleash her Limit Break semblance on him, which he couldn't handle and was legitimately defeated. Both scenarios look exactly the same from the outside, so without hearing Merc's take on it, we don't really know which is the one that happened.

Because people never ask people things to reassure them of things they think they have to do, and they always react rationally when incredibly life changing/terrifying opportunities present themselves. Come on, man.
The scene just felt like artificial drama to me. Pyrrha communicates poorly and then reacts poorly to Jaune's supportive (as far as he can tell) reaction. It's blatantly obvious that Jaune wants Pyrrha to do what she thinks will make her happy. Pyrrha just asks the question in a way that makes it seem like he's saying she should sacrifice her chance at happiness ofr the good of mankind, and then reacts so violently (literally) to that response that there's no chance to clear up the miscommunication. It's an especially frustrating example of One Dialogue, Two Conversations which, combined with literally everything else in the end of season three turning out in the worst possible way for the heroes, just adds one more straw to the camel's back.

I get where you're coming from for the most part, but, on this point (and the Mercury/Yang point), I just have to say you're actively looking for things to complain about now.
How is "the villain's plan amounts to a Xanatos Roulette and the fact that everything works out in the worst possible way for the heroes to the extent that it amounts to a Diabolus ex Machina" constitute "actively looking for things to complain about"? I mean, this has been my take on season three since it aired, so it's not like I haven't mentioned these issues before. I'm just bringing them up again now because I rewatched the relevant parts of the series.

edited 1st Feb '17 7:54:23 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44815: Feb 1st 2017 at 7:56:02 AM

[up]It's a good thing I was very clear on what points I meant, and didn't just whittle it down to your entire post then. Like I said, I might not agree with everything you post, but I usually get where you're coming from.

But on those two specific points, that I clearly pointed out, it just comes off as complaining for complaining's sake.

I'm not really sure how that's hard to understand.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44816: Feb 1st 2017 at 8:18:51 AM

They're both major scenes that constitute turning points in the plot (leading to Pyrrha deciding to accept the Maiden's power and the crowd turning ugly and beginning to attract grimm, respectively) that I had major problems with, which I explained at length. "Complaining for complaining's sake" seems to imply taking minor problems and blowing them out of proportion. I'm not talking about a small issue and claiming that it ruins everything, I'm talking about pivotal scenes that the entire plot revolves around. Dismissing it as "complaining for complaining's sake" when it's a ''fundamental criticism of the entire plot" seems odd, to say the least.

And because I was curious, I went and looked up my initial post about season three. Here it is. I wasn't posting here while season three was airing, but when I started seeing season four in my Youtube recommendations I dropped in to ask how it compared to season three (which I disliked). My complaints from back then are basically the same ones I brought up this time.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#44817: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:14:34 AM

I will also say that I liked Volume 3 less than Volumes 1 and 2.

Mostly because of Diabolus ex Machina.

I largely didn't like how sudden the tone shift was for that volume.

edited 1st Feb '17 11:15:46 AM by powerpuffbats

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44818: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:22:59 AM

I largely didn't like how sudden the tone shift was for that volume.

I mean, you're free to that. But I don't really see how it was that sudden when:

  • If you listen to the lyrics of the songs it's pretty blatant things are going to get darker.
  • Season 2 was building up to it with Torchwick's arrest, Adam's appearance, the giant Grimm Oobleck points out.
  • They even gave us a warning that things would be getting darker.

If you were solely binge'ing the episodes I guess I could see how it might be sudden. Diabolus ex Machina gives that shift in tone a very negative connotation.

edited 1st Feb '17 11:23:50 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#44819: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:23:44 AM

tbh i like the sudden tone shift. it's part of why i like PMMM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44820: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:28:24 AM

The shift could have been handled better, but it wasn't bad.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44821: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:35:00 AM

If you listen to the lyrics of the songs it's pretty blatant things are going to get darker.
As has been said before, the music was always darker than the content of the series, and Soundtrack Dissonance is a thing. So when someone says "did you really think that a series with an opening theme about failure, destruction, and the death of hope wouldn't be that dark?" my answer is "Yes, because that's how it worked for the first two and a half seasons".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#44822: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:36:05 AM

Which is why it works as a plot twist!

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44823: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:38:17 AM

Starting from season 2 things started to build up to something big. I can understand not thinking it would go to the extent it did, but if it getting darker actually surprised you, I have to say that's more on you than the show.

I mean, in season 2 ep 1 Mercury and Emerald straight up murdered a guy. True, he was someone we didn't know and didn't see the gritty details, but that was already further than anything in season 1. And it was pretty obvious juxtaposition with everything else going on in that episode and Ozpin's ominous musing of how they should enjoy being kids because they won't be forever.

edited 1st Feb '17 11:41:36 AM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44824: Feb 1st 2017 at 11:55:59 AM

As has been said before, the music was always darker than the content of the series, and Soundtrack Dissonance is a thing. So when someone says "did you really think that a series with an opening theme about failure, destruction, and the death of hope wouldn't be that dark?" my answer is "Yes, because that's how it worked for the first two and a half seasons".

If 90 percent of the music is hinting at darker themes, using lyrics and titles that indicate at something darker, I don't see a reason to assume they're just there to sound edgy and not foreshadow anything. Otherwise that is Soundtrack Dissonance and a waste of everyone's time.

edited 1st Feb '17 12:02:04 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44825: Feb 1st 2017 at 12:00:06 PM

or else that is Soundtrack Dissonance and a waste of everyone's time.
Which happens approximately all the time? I'm not sure why RWBY would magically be an exception to that possibility.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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