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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44276: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:23:37 PM

It's best exemplified when the creator admits they lied, or if their statement is contradicted in canon later on.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#44277: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:41:45 PM

Yes, there are some creators who are fairly notorious for deliberately misleading fans with Word of God statements, as shown on the page. Rooster Teeth isn't quite there, but they absolutely loved playing head games with their audience during RVB's run

edited 17th Jan '17 12:46:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44278: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:44:14 PM

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I don't assume it does. I've spoken to people who seem to just work under the assumption that anything the creators (or anyone related to the work) should be taken with a grain of salt. With that mindset it's incredibly hard to convince them of anything.

Plus, as I mentioned before, I've heard Rooster Teeth is pretty good in not being that way. Maybe what I've heard was wrong, but I haven't actually seen anything to contradict it yet. Maybe it's something I'll look deeper into.

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#44279: Jan 17th 2017 at 12:49:00 PM

[up]Monty was at worst a Teasing Creator.

Miles and Kerry are Trolling Creators.

Lying Creator? None of them outright lied regarding RWBY.

FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44280: Jan 17th 2017 at 2:33:49 PM

For all it's worth, being killed in RVB wasn't necessarily the end of things.

Donut got killed like thrice and he always came back (in some semblance of good shape) for no sensible reason other than to just come back (unlike, say, Tex or Church, sorta. ) (RVB spoilers there, I suppose)

You could perhaps look for that if we're going into #Bring Back The Torchwick territory again, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is unlikely. <.<

edited 17th Jan '17 2:34:37 PM by FergardStratoavis

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44281: Jan 17th 2017 at 4:05:18 PM

my theory is that Vol 3's darkness got ratcheted up due to Monty's death and just trying to work through it.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44282: Jan 17th 2017 at 4:57:06 PM

[up] I'm not sure about that. Originally (and this was while Monty was still alive), the events of Volumes 2 and 3 were supposed to happen in Volume 2. However, a decision was made that they had too much material for a single volume, so they split it into two volumes; then Monty decided the Maidens needed to be added to the storyline, so Volume 3 got rearranged again to fit in the Maidens (although, judging by what I've watched creators say in livestream interviews about the late addition of the Maidens, they didn't need to move the original storyline around very much - which makes me think that the Maiden idea was a solution to a plot problem that they had with the original idea).

Honestly, it sounds like they slowed down the darkness ramp up, if it really was supposed to happen in Volume 2 (and the Volume 2 opening credits do imply that as well, there are things like the ball of darkness and Beacon in flames, the focus on Ruby's eyes while white flashes around them, the kids all doing landing strategies into the streets of Vale - the first half of the opening credits is better suited to Volume 3's content than Volume 2's).

Pretty much, so far Adam issue is a lack of consistency every time he get on screen: he is well intension extremist,them he is cinder lackey or he is some butthurt ex boyfriend, the only thing consistent is that he IS strong as hell which

Adam has not been portrayed inconsistently, perhaps some fanon and canon are blurring together. Nowhere did the show claim Adam was a well-intentioned extremist in the current storyline. Blake did mention a friend who fell to darkness by degrees instead of starting off unambiguously evil. The implications of what Blake was saying to Yang were very clear when she was talking about Adam's fall to darkness, and how she was hesitating over Yang's behaviour. If fans twisted that into a belief that Adam is a well-intentioned extremist in the current storyline, that's their problem, not the show's (especially given that the Black Trailer implies he's well beyond Well-Intentioned Extremist territory).

The show also hasn't been inconsistent on the issue of Adam and Cinder. Adam wanted nothing to do with her, then she came back and killed a load of his men to make him an offer he couldn't refuse... cue end of scene.

We actually don't fully understand why Adam is working with Cinder and Salem. We have an appearance of coercion, but nothing more than that. The rest is fandom speculation.

Besides, even if he is a lackey of Cinder's, that doesn't stop him from being both that and a butt-hurt ex-boyfriend. It's possible to be both. Just as he can be thoroughly evil now and a Well-Intentioned Extremist at some point in his past while he was still in his 'fall by degrees' mode.

Anyway, it would be completely possible for a single person to a Well-Intentioned Extremist, a lackey of Person X and the arsehole, abusive ex of Person Y all at the same time.

edited 17th Jan '17 5:15:20 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#44283: Jan 17th 2017 at 5:16:42 PM

I don't know about going up, but there's an odd dash of realism thanks to Monty's death in Vol 3. If it was just "Bad stuff can happen and the world is not fair" when everyone behind the scenes was all happy and fun and healthy then it might come off as unrealistically edgy, but a close friend and critical staff remember randomly dying of a freak accident one day kind of proved that point for real.

When fans complained about how sad and unfair Pyrrha dying was, RT could pretty much shoot back that's how they all felt with Monty for real.

edited 17th Jan '17 5:17:33 PM by AJSthe2nd

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44284: Jan 17th 2017 at 5:53:06 PM

^^that definitely makes sense with the escalation of the story and I can see that. The difference I see is more at the execution level, like the treatment in mood of the battle of beacon vs vale. The vale battle basically acts as an awesome fight montage then ends with “curse you meddling kids” while the battle of beacon has several episodes dressing the scene with screaming people and hopeless fights and a few bittersweet stand up and cheer moments.

My completely unfounded theory is that the battle of beacon would have had less of that hopelessness permeating it. But I guess Pyrrha was always destined to die, so maybe not.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#44285: Jan 17th 2017 at 8:40:35 PM

Once again, I do not know where people get this notion that Adam is inconsistent. Gonna echo everything said[up][up][up]

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#44286: Jan 17th 2017 at 8:44:40 PM

You know, on the subject of Adam, I wonder if he'll ever get his own vocal theme.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44287: Jan 17th 2017 at 9:01:28 PM

And they run when the sun comes up! With their lives on the line !

I'm pretty sure Adam's songs are supposed to be either From Shadows, or Die.

edited 17th Jan '17 9:10:56 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Emperordaein Grant us eyes from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44289: Jan 17th 2017 at 10:31:43 PM

"Nowhere did the show claim Adam was a well-intentioned extremist in the current storyline"

it dosent have too, he is the leader of the white fang(or a least one of is branch) that fight for faunus right and go to far, that is pretty typical well intention extrimist right there.

"f fans twisted that into a belief that Adam is a well-intentioned extremist in the current storyline, that's their problem, not the show's (especially given that the Black Trailer implies he's well beyond Well-Intentioned Extremist territory)."

No really, in the black trailer he show unconcern with casualty which is pretty much the typical "fight for some long he dosent care anymore, people expect a more grey issue(and we got it...kinda)

"Adam wanted nothing to do with her, then she came back and killed a load of his men to make him an offer he couldn't refuse... cue end of scene."

cue to season two stinger were we see Adam said the white fang would obey him regard of the loss in Cinder plan almost like he is on board, them we move to that scene you said which make him sympatic(or a least draw to a certain code he dosnet break, make him consistent in that part) them he become edgelord macabuser and that it

"We actually don't fully understand why Adam is working with Cinder and Salem. "

Adam: we are going to fire the light of revolution...consider this, the spark

he said right there, we dont know what are is opinion on the whole deal and his clear he is out of the loop about Salem(after all he isnt there)

"that doesn't stop him from being both that and a butt-hurt ex-boyfriend. It's possible to be both. Just as he can be thoroughly evil now and a Well-Intentioned Extremist at some point in his past while he was still in his 'fall by degrees' mode."

in theory yeah...but the way he act toward blake pretty much taint everything else and it reduce him and is conflict of "peace vs violence" into "My girlfriend like blondes and I cant handle it"

" it would be completely possible for a single person to a Well-Intentioned Extremist, a lackey of Person X and the arsehole, abusive ex of Person Y all at the same time."

That it can it can sure, problem is that Adam just jump between each thing every damn time he apear, for the same guy who brush Blake leaving to the one who rant like a damn red piller, there isnt a line of event conecthing all this part into one coherent chararter.

That is for me, until further notice show him like a badass edgeord who can cut anything.

And about the change of tone, while it was clearly plan it from the start and volume 2 take to long, I will said Monty death did change some things around, after all he was a great beliver of "things should be cool or not be" which I time it detract from the mood around, hell returning to adam, shane latter reveal he want to do a prolonge fight scene between Yang and him, Compare that to the one hit KO we got I will said this change was for the best since it really help to set the despair of the episode.

So, yes, in a way is death change the mood.

PD: Shane latter reveal that Monty was listen linkin park when creating Adam...that clearly explain some things.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#44290: Jan 17th 2017 at 10:39:35 PM

[up][up] I came into this topic expecting that at some point. Good work.

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#44291: Jan 18th 2017 at 12:20:23 AM

cue to season two stinger were we see Adam said the white fang would obey him regard of the loss in Cinder plan almost like he is on board, them we move to that scene you said which make him sympatic(or a least draw to a certain code he dosnet break, make him consistent in that part) them he become edgelord macabuser and that it

The later scene changes the context to less that he's onboard and more he knows that if he doesn't comply Cinder will just kill him. No inconsistency in character here; he's all for the White Fang's cause, but when given an offer he couldn't refuse he decided to integrate his goals with Cinder's as much as possible since hey, if she's going to take down the kingdoms the White Fang might as well sweep in afterwards and build their Fanus-utopia and human-slums.

Also I'd like to stop and point out that Cinder didn't kill any White Fang in that scene; if you look at the people on the ground they are all still moving. You might need to watch it on a big scene but when I watched Volume 3 on Blu-ray back on October it stood out.

Wilahelm02 Since: Aug, 2010
#44292: Jan 18th 2017 at 2:09:38 AM

With Adam I got the impression that while Cinder may have forced him to join her at first by the time the Battle for Beacon rolled around he was all in. Adam may talk about how he wants what is best for the Faunus but his actions show that what he really wants is to bring the human race to its knees. At some point he realized working with Cinder would make that happen a lot faster then working for the White Fang would. Getting to hurt Blake for abandoning him is probably just a really great bonus as far as Adam is concerned

Vampireandthen In love with an Uptown Girl from Northern Ireland Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
In love with an Uptown Girl
#44293: Jan 18th 2017 at 3:43:15 AM

Adam is a damaged person. I hate him, but also want to know more about what made him the way he is. What started him down that path?

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am a man of wealth and taste. Nice to meet you, hope you can guess my name.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44294: Jan 18th 2017 at 5:46:22 AM

The later scene changes the context to less that he's onboard and more he knows that if he doesn't comply Cinder will just kill him. No inconsistency in character here; he's all for the White Fang's cause

Black Trailer

Blake: Goodbye.

Adam: -reaches out to her but makes no effort to jump the gap-

Before Cinder shows up and kills (?) people... like just a few seconds before...

Lieutenant: (talking about Blake) Sir, we'll send every man after her!

Adam: No. Forget it. Send all our guys over to Mistral.

After Cinder shows up and kills people

and like maybe a week or two later (?), the timeline is unimportant

Adam: Hello... my love... -fully intent on making Blake suffer-

Adam: And as I set upon this world and deliver the justice mankind so rightly deserves, I will make it my mission to destroy everything you love. -immediately proceeds to decapitate Blake thus ending her suffering-

Moments after Blake escapes

Adam: CRAWLING IN... MY SKIN. THESE WOUNDS... THEY WILL... NOT HEAAAL.

tl;dr: Adam was a lot less creepy and Blake-crazy the first two times we saw him.

edited 18th Jan '17 7:31:21 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44295: Jan 18th 2017 at 6:41:10 AM

it dosent have too, he is the leader of the white fang(or a least one of is branch) that fight for faunus right and go to far, that is pretty typical well intention extrimist right there.

Not it doesn't because WellIntentionedExtremists have to have, well, good intentions. Adam doesn't, he has a psycho revenge boner. It's implied that when Adam did have good intentions he wasn't crazy.

Adam and his descent into darkness are supposed to be emblematic of all the problems of that White Fang that drove Blake (and her parents before her) away from it. They're not about Faunus rights anymore, they're about human suffering. If people don't understand that, it's on them, not the show.

[up]The Battle of Beacon happened months after the Blake trailer.

edited 18th Jan '17 6:49:51 AM by LSBK

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#44296: Jan 18th 2017 at 7:28:27 AM

Basically I figured it as when Blake leaves he just figured she couldn't stomach the violence and was gonna sit out, which was disapointing but acceptable to him.

Then he found out that she joined the kingdoms, and actually attacked White Fang members, which he took as a serious personal betrayal, and that's when he decided to make her suffer.

Which also changed his views on Cinder from being threatened into it, into being 100 percent for it to the point of convincing the rest of the Fang to stick with them after they lost so many in Mountain Glenn they were thinking about bailing regardless of Cinder's wrath (cause if you're gonna die either way, what's the point?)

shinigamiPeter Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#44297: Jan 18th 2017 at 8:19:23 AM

A Cruel Grimm's Thesis

edited 18th Jan '17 8:31:54 AM by shinigamiPeter

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44298: Jan 18th 2017 at 8:34:01 AM

[up][up][up]Adam shitick about how faunus and human equality is pretty much Magneto or it was until he reunion with Blake when he move into super macedgelord

Soble: I think is safe to said that Blake vs Adam is pretty much evanence vs Linking park, if they fight again is going to be the most 2000 battle of all RWBY.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44299: Jan 18th 2017 at 1:01:45 PM

it dosent have too, he is the leader of the white fang(or a least one of is branch) that fight for faunus right and go to far, that is pretty typical well intention extrimist right there.

And in the pilot episode we were warned that the White Fang and Faunus rights protests were not the same thing, and that the White Fang were a problem even for Faunus. That occurs after the Black Trailer, where we see that Adam doesn't care if he casually kills humans in the process of achieving his aims (the very fact she asks about them serves to emphasise his attitude to the audience).

By the time we get to finale of Volume 1, we have a clear indication of how bad the White Fang are. We've had Oobleck's history lesson on how extremism takes people down the wrong road (using the White Fang as an example). We have an ex-White Fang member (Blake) telling a Faunus who has never been in the White Fang (Sun) about the leadership coup that changed the White Fang from a group that fought peacefully for Faunus rights into a terrorist organisation (in other words, there was premeditation - an actual plot to turn the White Fang into a terrorist organisation). That's after we've heard Weiss's family war history with the organisation to know the White Fang engage in murder. We have Sun saying the White Fang only represents the Faunus because it's decided to - it has not had permission from other Faunus to do so, that they give the Faunus a bad name. He even describes the White Fang as a cult. Meanwhile, we are given silhouettes of the three leaders who led the coup - one of which is very obviously a silhouette of Adam.

Then we get the opening episode of Volume 2 where we learn that the White Fang doesn't tolerate defectors and puts contracts out on anyone who tries to leave the organisation.

What part of any of this sets up Adam for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist?

The only vaguely surprising thing about his first appearance at the end of Volume 2 is that he shows just as much lack of concern about the dead Faunus as he does for killing humans in the Black Trailer. However, given that we already know by this point that defectors are murdered, it actually isn't so surprising - it simply serves to suggest that, while human lives mean nothing, the only Faunus lives that matter are the ones that can be used to get the three coup leaders to whatever their true end-goals are.

cue to season two stinger were we see Adam said the white fang would obey him regard of the loss in Cinder plan almost like he is on board, them we move to that scene you said which make him sympatic(or a least draw to a certain code he dosnet break, make him consistent in that part) them he become edgelord macabuser and that it

You've missed the point of my 'cue end scene' comment. I did not forget the Volume 2 stinger. The Volume 2 stinger is one of the reasons why I made the 'cue end scene' comment, and the for the reason you've illustrated here. Adam speaks a single sentence to Cinder in that scene. In that scene, there is absolutely no indication of hierarchical relationship between Adam and Cinder. It simply makes clear that Adam and Cinder are working together and that the loss of many Faunus lives in pursuit of Cinder's goals will not stop Adam from working with her, even if he's got to order the Faunus to keeping working with her.

It is not a scene you can ascribe any motive to, or any hierarchical relationship to. This is where fandom speculation kicks in. This is where fanon is born. This is why I said there may be some confusion going on between fanon and canon.

When you strip away fandom speculation and assumptions about motives that have never been stated, you're simply left with unanswered questions.

The scene I mentioned makes him only as sympathetic as you want to feel. It shows dead faunus, and then Cinder opening chests of something. Fans made the decision to believe that Adam's motive was the protection of faunus lives from Cinder's wrath. However, that motive is made despite already knowing that Adam doesn't seem to care about the loss of faunus lives at the end of Volume 2.

For all we know, all Cinder did was kill off the faunus guards that were protecting the White Fang camp, and that Adam didn't care about those dead faunus, only what the threat was and whatever it is that Cinder offered him.

I made a point of mentioning both fanon and canon because there's is a huge difference between what fans have speculated and decided to assume about Adam and his motives when compared to what we're actually shown on screen.

That it can it can sure, problem is that Adam just jump between each thing every damn time he apear, for the same guy who brush Blake leaving to the one who rant like a damn red piller, there isnt a line of event conecthing all this part into one coherent chararter.

No, he doesn't. His focus has been on different things because he's been shown in different situations. When dealing with Cinder, his focus has been on Cinder. When dealing with Blake, his focus has been on Blake. That's exactly the same as any other character in the show - we see them reacting on the basis of the situation they're in (be that a physical situation, mental or both).

As for a line, I've had no trouble connecting a line. It's about recognising when the characters are dealing with plot issues and personal issues, and when plot and personal intersect and deviate.

shane latter reveal he want to do a prolonge fight scene between Yang and him, Compare that to the one hit KO we got I will said this change was for the best since it really help to set the despair of the episode.

Completely agree. There were several things in Shane's letter that I felt were not the best idea and am grateful did not unfold as Shane stated. I don't mean that with any disrespect to either Monty or Shane, but I think Shane was in a place where he wasn't able to acknowledge that Monty himself had freely talked in interviews about the creative process and how you learn as you're developing the story that things that seem amazing in your head are crap when animated or scripted, and things you thought could never work turn out to be absolutely amazing when produced.

And the truth is no-one could have done exactly what Monty had wanted because Monty was no longer there. It would have been impossible, and different people in Monty's life would have had to come to terms with that painful awareness in their own time.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44300: Jan 18th 2017 at 6:29:22 PM

"What part of any of this sets up Adam for being a Well-Intentioned Extremist? "

the extremist part actually, from most part a WIE dosent even need to be good or grey, just someone who have view you can agree but method you opose which it fit.

" However, given that we already know by this point that defectors are murdered, it actually isn't so surprising - it simply serves to suggest that, while human lives mean nothing, the only Faunus lives that matter are the ones that can be used to get the three coup leaders to whatever their true end-goals are."

it dosent surprise much because defector can be used against them making paranoid enought to tie the lose end in this case calling them a cult is actually consistent, the fact they throw faunus live for a human plan...yeah that is weird.

"Adam speaks a single sentence to Cinder in that scene. In that scene, there is absolutely no indication of hierarchical relationship between Adam and Cinder. "

actually it implies the two have aliance since we didnt know anything about Adam until that very moment, I didnt said anything about one being superior but clearly the White fang is following somebody else plan, them in volume 3 show he was bullied into the whole thing which it scribe

"Fans made the decision to believe that Adam's motive was the protection of faunus lives from Cinder's wrath. However, that motive is made despite already knowing that Adam doesn't seem to care about the loss of faunus lives at the end of Volume 2."

Again no true, the scene show that at the very least he have ether some sort of code or that he dosent see reason to enter himself into human buissness and was forced into this, but it clash with him resuring Cinder that White fang is going on with her plan, clearly something is missing there.

"When dealing with Cinder, his focus has been on Cinder. When dealing with Blake, his focus has been on Blake"

in both cases he deal in the ambit of the white fang: Cinder made a deal and them she enforce into him, in the second he said "everything I did was for you blake" which was quite out of nowhere, hell in one moment he just brush Blake living him and the other he pretty much make is on Bane speech to her in festival atack, is clear they didnt wrap the whole thing nicely.

" I think Shane was in a place where he wasn't able to acknowledge that Monty himself had freely talked in interviews"

Yeah is weird because Monty never made a deal about is lacking storytelling skills and the fact this was learing experience, Shane give him the George lucas treatment and it shows.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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