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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44201: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:29:21 PM

[up][up]Ah, yeah, that's a fair point. Atlas is a frozen wasteland under what's effectively military dictatorship. Vacuo is virtual anarchy with their hunter academy providing what little law and order exists. Mistral seems to have a serious problem with class divide, with the upper class being high-society types concerned with the arts and noble philosophical pursuits, while everyone else has to turn to black market underworld stuff just to survive. Vale is definitely the nicest place to live, in comparison — the only real screw-up they have on their books is Mountain Glenn, and that sort of ill-fated attempt at expansion doesn't seem to be limited to Vale. Mistral, at least, has a similar story with Oniyuri.

[up]He was pretty much getting wrecked by Sun and Blake until he sends the mooks in to distract them and runs away in the ensuing fight. The guy can hold his own, which is impressive for a civilian, but he's just not a hunter-tier fighter and was never presented as one.

edited 15th Jan '17 12:31:10 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44202: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:29:21 PM

"And most of the cringey stuff with Jaune and Pyrrha happens in season three, not season two. "

No really, in season two you have the typical otaku bait of "Sucesfull student is lonely and sad because she is such ace and like the poor loser because he is nice to him" which is pretty much otaku bait 101, in season three reverse that by making him the suporter chararter of her and give Phyrra and actually challange beyond her.

"Roman was never all that impressive a fighter"

but neither is that pathetic by lose that way against Blake, is fight in the dock he manage to block everything Sun and Her throw against him and manage to sneak a blow against Ruby, hell Ruby is faster than Blake and Roman just said "Screw that" and manage to give him the good old ultraviolence.

" The fact that season three dials the tone up another ten notches all at once is on season three, not season two (which takes a tone that's a good, natural progression from season one)."

Again I disagree, season two should serve the brigde between the happy season one and the dark season three but you dont see that anywere, you see some tension with Cinder preparing her plan but for most part they focus in dancing and love triangle with the battle of reach just going back into "let kick butt!" which it dosent give the sense of something bad coming.

If you plan to turn dark, in some point you need to move the risk a little bit in order to aclimate the audience, Harry potter did it, Steven universe did it,So gravity fall and Aventure time, otherwise it just slap you in the face(like it did with you actually)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44203: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:43:07 PM

I wouldn't say that Roman was getting wrecked against Blake and Sun, and he probably could have one against either of them alone. But together they would have eventually had him beat.

I don't even get the complaining about him losing to beat, the situation and context for it made perfect sense to me. She's using a new trick to take him by surprise and keep him off balance, he's in a confined area and she ended things pretty quickly, as seems to be her skill set.

edited 15th Jan '17 1:42:07 PM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44204: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:53:02 PM

[up]He was pretty much getting wrecked by Sun and Blake until he sends the mooks in to distract them and runs away in the ensuing fight. The guy can hold his own, which is impressive for a civilian, but he's just not a hunter-tier fighter and was never presented as one.

Someone said that before and I don't see it. Blake cuts in after Sun starts firing his weapons and knocks Torchwick back. At no point in that fight prior to Torchwick getting knocked back by Blake was he getting wrecked. He sent in mooks before the main part of the fight and before Ruby showed up, after which he shot Ruby, and then Penny showed up and wrecked the remaining mooks. By this point the fight is now 4-on-1 with likely reinforcement on the way, and Penny was dragging an airship out of the sky. Torchwick's retreat makes sense.

which is impressive for a civilian, but he's just not a hunter-tier fighter and was never presented as one.

Not saying he is. It's still jarring to see him go from a 2-on-1 fight where Cane Fu gave him the upperhand, to a fight where he's defeated by teamwork, to a fight where he was beaten easily because Blake's character development demanded it. He came off as a Combat Pragmatist - always ran but actually quite capable in a fight, just opted not to do so. Turns out he's just Weak, but Skilled, if that. Blake could have beaten him on her own if she'd just had some Dust with her in Volume 1.

Though it does make some sense because he's a criminal and not necessarily gifted at combat, but this could have been better expressed if he'd performed worse against Sun and Blake - have him take some more hits, or maybe don't show him whirling his cane around to block bullets from near point-blank range. It gives off the impression that he's a Bad Ass when the show later demonstrates that the badass hierarchy goes:

  • Qrow/Tyrian/Raven/Beacon staff
  • Neo
  • Cinder's crew
  • Pyrrha
  • Team CFVY
  • Teams RWBY, JNPR, and other first-years in general
  • Torchwick
  • Junior and his goons
  • The dirt
  • The worms inside of the dirt
  • Cardin and Jaune

edited 15th Jan '17 1:06:33 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44205: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:53:18 PM

[up][up]that it dosent even match is skill set as he can take fast oponent like he did with Ruby.

But more important it just thrash the whole build up to Blake facing the white fang in season 2, is also funny about How yang said they can take the WF and yet she is the one losing to Neo while Weiss lost to not-leatherface,

edited 15th Jan '17 12:55:26 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44206: Jan 15th 2017 at 1:40:33 PM

[up][up] Forgot to include Zwei at the top.

As for Black Sun vs. Torchwick, the gun-chuck sequence is still one of my favorite bits of Vol. 1, if only because how ridiculous it is.

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#44207: Jan 15th 2017 at 1:49:58 PM

Torchwick cheats. Blake and Sun backed him into a corner until he knocked a crate at them, then surprise shot Ruby when she showed up before she was ready. In episode 1 he tossed Dust at Ruby and blew it up to get an advantage.

Against Ruby in Vol 3 he and Neo ganged up on her and when Neo was gone, Ruby stupid tried to fight him without her weapon, while he still had his.

Against Blake he was backed into a corner and had to fight her head on, which isn't what he's good at. He makes it a point to not fight hunters, he didn't even try to fight Glynda in episode one.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44208: Jan 15th 2017 at 1:58:58 PM

On Blake + Sun vs Roman: Blake starts the fight by getting the drop on him and putting her sword to his throat before he or any of the mooks around him can react, which is pretty telling by itself. He gets out of that by shooting at her feet when she's distracted by the VTOL ships coming in, but she gets out of the line of fire without taking any other hits. Then Sun gets the drop on Roman and lands a double kick to the face, so Roman sends the mooks in. Sun takes care of the mooks, then Blake jumps back in. She and Roman duel, with Roman getting a few hits in without taking much in return, then Sun jumps in and puts him on the defensive until Blake rejoins the fray with a sucker punch that sends Roman flying. Roman stalls them by dropping a shipping crate on them, which is when Ruby enters the scene and that's pretty much all the fighting Roman does. So, the only time Roman actually has the upper hand is a slight (but not decisive) edge in a pure melee exchange with Blake. Both Blake and Sun are both able to separately ambush him, Sun is able to melee him to a standstill, and the two of them working together are more than Roman can defend against.

Fast forward to their rematch on the train, and the main difference is that Blake is now using the trick of combining dust with her semblance, so instead of just being good for dodging, it has a variety of useful effects. Fire blows up in Roman's face, stone takes a shot for her, ice traps Roman's weapon, etc. Between Roman getting caught off guard by this and Blake not screwing around this time (she could have just slit Roman's throat with her opening attack in the previous fight), Roman goes down. Notably, they don't actually get into a straight melee duel like they did the first time — Blake uses her dusty semblance trick to avoid that situation.

All told, it seems like a fairly reasonable progression to me. Blake is narrowly edged out in their first round but wins with help from an ally, and she comes back a season later with a new trick and is able to beat him solo.

As far as combat hierarchy, I'd say it goes something like this:

  • Supernatural tier: Maidens, Cinder, Ozpin(?), Salem(?), Ruby w/ silver eye powers(?)
  • Elite tier: Crow, Raven, Adam, Tyrian, Glinda(?), Ironwood(?), Winter(?)
  • Hunter tier: Oobleck, Port, Pyrrha, CFVY, Penny(?)
  • Student tier: Roman, RWBY, JNPR (minus Pyrrha), Sun
  • Mook tier: generic soldiers, goons, and robots
  • Civilian tier: noncombatants

Obviously you can divide it more finely than that if you want, but that seems to be the general idea, at least. Basically, you've got your average joes with no combat ability whatsoever at the bottom in civilian tier. Above that are people who can fight, but don't seem to use aura, so they're interchangeable, disposable mooks as far as the series is concerned. Next step up is people who can use aura but aren't especially powerful or skilled with it, which I called "student tier" for lack of a better term. Then fully trained and experienced aura-users, which would be your average hunter. Beyond that is unusually skilled, experienced, or powerful aura users, the top tier of fighters we've seen that don't use some sort of plot device shenanigans. And at the top, naturally, is people with plot device shenanigans.

Some characters aren't exactly clear where they fall, either because we haven't seen them fight at all (like Ozpin, Salem, and Taiyang), or because we've only seen them fighting below their weight class (eg, Mercury and Emerald are able to beat up on RWBY pretty easily, but we don't know if they're in the same league as Crow and Tyrian).

edited 15th Jan '17 2:21:13 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Cross (Don’t ask)
#44209: Jan 15th 2017 at 1:59:46 PM

[up][up]I don't think "cheats" is the right word for any of that.

edited 15th Jan '17 2:00:49 PM by Cross

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44210: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:17:44 PM

Roman doesn't like fighting directly if he can avoid it. It doesn't mean he's bad at it, but it's not his main thing and it's not that hard to take him down if you do. As t least, in the right circumstances.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44211: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:21:20 PM

You know what.

All told, it seems like a fairly reasonable progression to me. Blake is narrowly edged out in their first round but wins with help from an ally, and she comes back a season later with a new trick and is able to beat him solo.

I'll settle with this without getting too silly or too far into anti-Blake mode. Fair enough.

As far as combat hierarchy, I'd say it goes something like this

If what I'm hearing about this WOR is true then, while the combat hierarchy is still pretty nebulous, I'd put the SEW's and the Maidens below Salem's group, Cinder below them, Ozpin beneath her, and the King of Vale above all of them.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44212: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:23:32 PM

Oh bollocks.

Now I can't disagree with people who call Ruby a Canon Sue.

edited 15th Jan '17 2:38:35 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44214: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:32:17 PM

But she is a Silver-Eyed Warrior, and the ability to instantly incapacitate/kill giant monsters with a glance is pretty broken.

-cricket noises-

edited 15th Jan '17 3:06:02 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#44215: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:40:47 PM

I don't get why Canon Sue is even a thing when people already use Mary Sue for characters outside of fanfiction.

Also, Ruby's not a Sue. She's so Out of Focus that the notion she might be just because she's special in some way (so basically like every protagonist ever) is honestly somewhat laughable. Plus her specialness is (currently) only effective against Grimm (aka mooks) and Cinder for some reason.

edited 15th Jan '17 2:45:15 PM by Karxrida

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44216: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:41:03 PM

Hell, Ruby at her full potential with her Eyes would probably be one of the ten strongest beings in this setting.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#44217: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:50:21 PM

[up] Possibly, but that doesn't make her a sue; that term is thrown around far to liberally. The issue with Ruby is that her character pretty much stagnated midway through volume 1, while other characters have had significant development.

edited 15th Jan '17 2:56:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#44218: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:58:27 PM

[up]Hell, Ruby and her team got stomped by a killer scorpion a couple of episodes ago and would've died if not for her drunken uncle showing up and saving them. Said uncle then got poisoned saving Ruby from a falling board.

Sue she is not.

Speaking of said falling board, couldn't she have just side stepped that?

That or Nora or Ren could've shot it away from her.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#44219: Jan 15th 2017 at 2:59:04 PM

[up] Forgot About His Powers is unfortunately quite common in RWBY. That being said, Ruby's aura was depleted, so she wouldn't be able to use her semblance to evade the beam.

The unfortunate thing about Ruby (and she's my favorite character, me being the kind of boring person who likes protagonists) is that she has a very obvious character arc set up for her after volume 1 resolved her poor social skills to the point where it's just an occasional gag rather than constantly front and center; it's abundantly clear she was an extremely sheltered child, and becoming more worldly without necessarily losing that spark of idealism that pretty much defines her character.

edited 15th Jan '17 3:04:38 PM by CaptainCapsase

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#44220: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:02:48 PM

[up]Even without the aura, it really felt like she could've just side stepped it. One big step to the side and she would've been fine.

Or they could've thrown Nora. [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#44221: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:13:33 PM

Qrow would have fucked it up somehow. Someone misses the beam, Nora cracks her head on it, Ruby side steps and still gets hit, a Goliath drops out of the sky... Any way you cut it, someone's bound to get whammied by Qrow's Misfortune. Whether it kills them or not is up to chance.

edited 15th Jan '17 3:17:31 PM by WillDeRegio

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#44222: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:16:38 PM

Great. Now I want to see these outtakes. [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#44223: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:19:18 PM

Huh. I wonder how Qrow's Misfortune would interact with Mammoth Rider's meme. Is it more misfortunate to get laid by Taiyang or not?

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#44225: Jan 15th 2017 at 3:26:04 PM

  • Taiyang: Entire. Team.
  • Qrow: I don't think that's a good idea...
  • Summer: (clutches chest) Hnnngh!
  • Taiyang & Qrow: Summer?!
  • Raven: Screw This, I'm Outta Here!
  • Summer: (gasping) I'm fine...

EDIT: Huh. So Summer died from a Yaoi induced heart attack. That's my Head Canon now.

edited 15th Jan '17 3:30:38 PM by WillDeRegio


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