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Wilahelm02 Since: Aug, 2010
#44176: Jan 14th 2017 at 10:24:05 PM

[up]Season three of RWBY...may God have mercy on your soul. Enjoy [lol]

So very good world of Remnant this week. Finally get to know about the Great War, been wanting to know about this piece of lore since it was brought up in volume 2.

It seems despite popular belief Mantal wasn't the one that started the war, it was Mystral and its expansionist emperor. Mantal and its successor kingdom Atlas seem more and more like the kingdom that does the wrong thing for the right reasons. Wants to protect their people by stopping Grimm attacks. Lets do it by suppressing the arts and individuality. Our long time allies have become involved in a major conflict so lets go to their aid. A conflict that began because of its leaders expansionist policies. We also see one Ozpin's past incarnations. The Warrior-King of Vale. First wizard, then king, then headmaster, and now farm handtongue. Oscar better start stepping up before he starts making the whole spiritual line look bad.

edited 14th Jan '17 10:35:58 PM by Wilahelm02

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#44177: Jan 14th 2017 at 10:44:30 PM

[up]It's pretty fair to assume the king has some relation to Ozpin at the least. His power was clearly immense, yet no one knew about that up until he basically ended the war himself. Fits the general bill of Oz and his Maiden dealings perfectly.

Wilahelm02 Since: Aug, 2010
#44178: Jan 14th 2017 at 11:06:32 PM

Since his description mentions a staff and he wiped out an army almost entirely on his own he was definitely a top tier fighter. Though Qrow also said he was the one who established the academy's and a few episodes ago he said it was Ozpin's predecessor who set them up. I'm definitely leaning towards the idea that the king was Ozpin's previous incarnation.

I just realized that this adds a whole new dimension to the way the characters from different kingdoms treat and think about each other. Even though 80 years have passed there still seems to be some bad blood between the former enemy kingdoms. Qrow has always had a low opinion of people from Atlas. There was that woman at the party in Atlas who said Vale got what they deserved. I just thought of her as an out of touch snob but now I'm wondering if it has more to do with lingering feeling of resentment from the war.

edited 14th Jan '17 11:35:53 PM by Wilahelm02

shinigamiPeter Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#44179: Jan 15th 2017 at 6:32:05 AM

Huh, new Wo R fits rather nicely into an old theory of mine.

Consider the following. The King of Vale is said to have used two weapons- the sword and the scepter. The scepter seems to be Ozpin's cane, considering their similar designs. But what about the sword? Well, the interesting part is that it's colored yellow, unlike the scepter which is green like the rest of the King. And we know of what yellow-themed, old weapon? That's right, Crocea Mors (aka Yellow Death- fitting name for a weapon that caused so much destruction, it ended a war), a sword that, according to Jaune, was used by his great-grandfather to fight in the War. Which leads to the conclussion that Jaune is a descendant of either the last King of Vale or some close ally of his, who was entrusted the sword after the Great War.

This explains why Jaune could be declined combat training- if Arcs are the remnant of the old royalty, his parents would've prefered to keep the only heir out of danger. And Jaune's speech of his linage being that of heroes would definitely fits if his ancestor was the one to end the Great War, as well as his desire to be like to be like him and his low self-confidence- those are some mighty shoes to fit in. Also, if we believe that the King is a previous incarnation of Ozpin, this can also explain why he was willing to give Jaune a chance even with his non-existant combat background- in a bit twisted way, Jaune is his descendant, too.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#44180: Jan 15th 2017 at 7:38:27 AM

[up]Oh my god. I love it.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44181: Jan 15th 2017 at 8:17:42 AM

Now, aren't Mistral Emperor and Salem quite alike silhouette-wise?

I presume that Jaune himself is not royalty and that his family had simply been entrusted with Crocea Mors instead.

Also, what has my attention is that the Huntsman institution is so recent; with Grimm being around since the dawn of time, one would think specially-trained warriors would show up sooner. Also also, somebody had settled on the Ominous Dragon Continent before.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44182: Jan 15th 2017 at 9:34:46 AM

[up][up][up]Interesting theory; the only problem I see with it is that Jaune never says he was denied combat training (he just says he was no good at it), and Ozpin didn't let him in despite his lack of training (Jaune forged transcripts from a combat school in order to get accepted into Beacon). Though given that Jaune didn't even know what aura was, it seems likely that he never got any real Huntsman-style combat training. Which begs the question of how he knows he's no good at it, but oh well.

It's interesting that they don't actually mention what happened to the King of Vale after the Great War, other than that he was the last one. Presumably he abdicated, but did he completely vanish from public life or become Just the First Citizen? If the royal family went permanently incognito, then I could totally see Jaune being descended from them — presumably even he wouldn't know about his heritage.

I also find myself wondering if the sword and the scepter are two of the relics. The sword would presumably be the relic of destruction, while my guess is that the scepter is probably the relic of knowledge (though it could be any of the other three, really; the symbolism isn't exactly as clear as "sword used to murder most of an army = destruction). If they are, and Jaune's sword is the same sword, then that raises the question of why he's carrying it around instead of being locked up in one of the academies like it's supposed to be.

edited 15th Jan '17 9:35:20 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44183: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:03:33 AM

Just seen the WoR segment.

    Spoilers unmarked inside 
Some of my questions answered:
  • Yes, there used to be kings and emperors (the Vale King looks European and the Mistral Emperor looks Chinese)
  • Yes, the Great War saw the last of them in Vale and restructured the governments afterwards.
  • Yes, the Grimm were vitalised by the war.
  • War lasted for 10 years, on the back of a century of such heightened tensions, the two periods get lumped together: so, 'conflict' was 110 years, but the Great War was the last 10 years of it.
  • It was Mantle that decided to suppress creativity and individuality - which is what the entire fandom expected. Who kicked that one off is not stated.

Other things:

  • Nice to see Mantle's heavy reliance on trade to cope with the resource-limited Solitas.
  • Little bit of info about Anima's geographic make-up.
  • Warning that Anima tends to be a haven for jerks.
  • Nice to see how the two sides teamed up against each other.
    • Mantle may have insisted on Mistral conforming to its defeat-the-Grimm-through-uniformity-and-emotionlessness but Mistral only does so where it suits their private agenda.
    • It's actually Mistral's expansionist attitude that starts the war properly. Mantle was making misguided, self-harming decisions and pushed that on Mistral. Mistral complied to a certain extent, in keeping with its own agendas.
    • The war kicked off properly when Mistral was given an inch (by Vale) and took a mile.
    • Just like the domino effects of real-life world wars, once Vale kicked off against Mistral's expansion, Mistral called in alliances, and suddenly it was Vale versus Mistral+Mantle.
    • Vacuo turns out to be Switzerland in a world where the countries on one side of the war don't respect neutrality. So, to avoid getting crapped on by Mantle and Mistral when the neighbours don't respect their neutrality, they come out on the side of Vale.
    • Vacuo's current state of existence can almost entirely be placed on the shoulders of the Warrior King alone. So, Vacuo siding with Vale to avoid being crapped on failed in a most spectacularly awful way (and they haven't recovered to this day).
  • The Warrior King of Vale is one very scary dude.
  • The Warrior King is the person who established the Huntsmen Academies.
    • That means that, as per Qrow's conversation with Team RNJR, the world thinks of the Warrior King as Ozpin's predecessor.
    • That means, as per Ozpin's conversation with Oscar, Ozpin is the Warrior King.
      • If so, Ozpin's cane must have previously been the 'sceptre' the Warrior King is stated to have carried around with him.

So, going back to Ironwood's argument with Ozpin in Volume 2 about why Ozpin was so 'passive' about dealing with threats:

  • Ozpin's comment about hoping kids would never have to fight a war was said behind Ironwood's back so that the audience could hear, but Ironwood could not. That makes it obvious to the audience that Ozpin knows exactly what war is like and implies that, despite being a general, Ironwood actually doesn't.
  • Ozpin openly tells Ironwood that they can't send an army in because that would drag in outside kingdoms. It was obvious at that point that Ozpin feared a global war occurring. Ironwood did seem to back down at that point, but clearly didn't fully comprehend Ozpin's fear.
  • Glynda points out to Ironwood that Ozpin has experience the rest of them lack. We still don't fully know what that's referring to, except to imply that the Benevolent Conspiracy do know something about Ozpin that hasn't been revealed/confirmed yet.
  • Ironwood still felt like there was something Ozpin was keeping secret, which Glynda disagreed with. That implies that, while the gang know something about Ozpin that the audience doesn't, they still don't know everything that Ozpin knows (if Ironwood's gut instinct is right, and we all expect him to be right).
  • The Warrior King lived through the escalation of kingdom after kingdom getting dragged in like a row of dominoes being toppled, which would explain Ozpin's reticence.

So, the Great War in terms of Ozpin and Salem, the Relics and the current show:

  • Always thought the statue at Beacon was a human+faunus (suggesting the foundations of the Academies were based on human+faunus co-operation, so it's interesting to see that Vacuo's leader at the time of the war looks like a faunus, and that the war went some way to improving human/faunus relations.
  • On Mantle starting the suppression of individuality: this is how Jacques Schnee behaves - given his age (remember that Nicholas Schnee was implied to have been alive during the war or at least towards the end of it), Jacques could be from a predecessor who was involved in the decision, or at least drive, to stifle creativity and individuality. There's no indication to claim that people who believed in that side no longer exist.
  • Ozpin isn't simply trying to avoid another global war, he's trying to avoid another situation where the Warrior King's full power needs to be used.
  • Given that the academies were created to hide and protect the Relics, the Great War must have been a 'cover' for Salem's attempt to obtain them.
  • Since it looks like Ozpin was the Warrior King, and the Warrior King had to unleash a apocalyptic display of power, I'm going to guess that Salem almost succeeded in obtaining the Relics (hence the intervention and the creation of the academies) and we now have a big question mark over whether the Warrior King's devastating climax was his own power, or whether he actually used any (or all) of the Relics to end the war
    • if it was just one Relic, that'll give us an indication of how terrible it will be for Relics to start being combined.
    • If that was no Relics and just the Warrior King's personal power, we're looking at Ozpin being a Person of Mass Destruction who is capable of a World-Wrecking Wave. Not good.
    • Either way, Ozpin seems to be trying to avoid this Doomsday Scenario.
    • But Ozpin seems to doing exactly the same thing the Warrior King did - the Warrior King was initially passive to Mistral's activities in Sanas until pushed to confrontation. Ozpin was initially passive to the south-east activities until pushed into reaction during Cinder's invasion.
    • Is Ozpin making the same mistake twice? How many times has he repeated the same mistake (after all, the songs have been claiming a cycle of mistakes for a long period of time). The body-surfing won't have started with the Warrior King — the Warrior King was just the previous host to Ozpin (and now Oscar). Oscar may need to break the cycle.
    • I've been talking about Ruby being the one to Take a Third Option — if Oscar needs to break the cycle, he might go for the third option, too.
    • If the Warrior-King's sceptre became Ozpin's cane, what did the sword become?

edited 15th Jan '17 11:26:38 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44184: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:35:58 AM

This seems like a pretty infodumpy WOR episode. That or a lot of speculation's going on because of it.

For the sake of tension and mystery I think I'll just skip this one and glean information as we go.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44185: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:39:42 AM

[up] It's both. It's a good infodump. The speculation comes from (possible) hindsight awareness to certain things that have happened or been said in the show, and therefore where things are going for future episodes.

This one has turned out to be a really good segment. However, I tend to like the WoR episodes anyway.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#44186: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:48:58 AM

Yeah, I thought about what it meant to Jaune myself, but I doubt he would have been the actual King's descendant. The label of a great hero during the war is a bit different from the walking bundle of annihilation which ended the war himself and founded the Hunters - Jaune's family's lineage would have to be outright hidden after that defining moment for him not to have one of the most storied families ever, which everyone he's met would probably be aware of...which is, granted, quite possible, since it sounds like the King's battle is more regarded as legend by history.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44187: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:49:57 AM

shinigami: well that is intersting but if that is truth I have to ask: those tyrian know something about Jaune? because he seen to recognize him somewhere....

it is posible is family is the next target?.

Also Jovian, I disagree with saying volume 2 is the best, for me is the worst by long shot: pointless anime stuff like the dance, cringe arc like Jaunce and Phyrra that is pretty much otaku bait, Roman is good but a) he suddenly steal stuff off screen and them lose like chump in one of the most awfull fight(if you can call it like that) which it kinda screw the internal consistency of the whole thing.

And the worst would be the tone, since the grim invasion was deal so easly it dosent have the right transition to darkest tone of volume 3 which in turn create all the complain(incuding you jovian) about being so sudden.

Yeah, I dont like volume 2

edited 15th Jan '17 10:51:32 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44188: Jan 15th 2017 at 10:57:10 AM

[up] (3) Fair enough.

[up] Volume 2 was... an interesting time...

I tried to get some friends into this series once and it's funny how only now I can see why it might actually be hard to get people into this series.

edited 15th Jan '17 11:23:00 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44189: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:22:35 AM

i mean, most people don't actually believe that the king ended the war himself and I doubt Jaune would even if he was one of his descendants. I mean, that's not even how I read what Qrow was talking about, so apparently I heard things way different from all of you.

I'm not convinced Ozpin's predecessor, who is apparently the former King of Vale, is actually him, and they're all literally one person.

I'm still wondering how the Wizard and Maidens fit into this. That doesn't seem connected to the Relics and Gods except that Salem wants them both.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44190: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:29:25 AM

[up][up]please, that tis good but nothing beat this:

I mean Roman have a good swag and who could said Adam knew how to move tongue

[up]Well, they said the maidens are hide because of that: people wanted....maybe they were used in the war?

edited 15th Jan '17 11:32:17 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44191: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:34:38 AM

[up][up] Ozpin told Oscar he helped build Haven Academy. Qrow tells Team RNJR that Ozpin's predecessor was the man who created the Academies. And this WoR segment states the Warrior-King of Vale was the man who created the Academies.

Given that we know there's a Body Surf aspect to Ozpin, it does suggest that we're talking about the same 'entity', but while he's in different host bodies.

edited 15th Jan '17 11:35:13 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44192: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:41:49 AM

[up]Yes, I'm aware. But "helped build" and "founded" don't preclude being separate people, at least at one point in time. I'm not denying the possibility all together or even saying it's unlikely, just that I'm not going to jump to conclusions about what it would mean.

But, anyway, I've mentioned this before but now they're really hammering in how Vale is the only "good" kingdom. Not even the best, because phrasing it like that implies the others are even decent.

edited 15th Jan '17 11:43:53 AM by LSBK

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44193: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:52:13 AM

[up] Well, yeah, they don't mean the same thing which is why I said 'suggest' not 'definitely'.

They're not even saying that Vale's a 'good' kingdom. They're saying that Vale's about as good as anyone's managed to get in Remnant given the state of the world.

Interestingly, I'm getting the vibe at the moment that Vacuo may possibly have been better at one point - until its unfortunate incident left it a ruin of its former self. It's still implied to have made greater strides in equality (if only because survival trumps discrimination).

But, yes, Mistral and Mantle are indicated to have been the dodgy kids on the block and it has been said that people are currently rather worried about Atlas's behaviour in recent years. However, we do have a strong indication that Nicholas Schnee did try and put Mantle/Atlas on a better path. It begs the question of just how powerful Jacques is - despite having 'only' one seat on the council as opposed to Ironwood's two (physical numbers mean nothing if there's soft power used - and Jacques probably has more soft power than Ironwood realises).

edited 15th Jan '17 11:59:36 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44194: Jan 15th 2017 at 11:57:47 AM

That's not really the part I was focused on. But, anyway, this was a pretty good World of Remnant.

Thinking about it now, I'd say Vale has Choice, because it's the most important one so obviously it goes to the best kingdom. Atlas has Knowledge because being innovative is their thing. Mistral has Creation because they're all about expression and art and nature. Which leaves Vacuo Destruction because of twisted irony.

This also brings up something else: if the King had all the relics at the time, how did he/the royal family get them?

edited 15th Jan '17 11:58:24 AM by LSBK

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#44195: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:03:23 PM

[up]Yes, I've been assuming that Vale was Choice, because Ozpin's been quite worried about people's choices. Atlas was obviously Knowledge.

I haven't quite made up my mind about which ones Vacuo and Mistral had, but I'm wondering - given Vacuo's story - if it might not have been a 'counter' to their lot to give them the Creation Relic.

On the other hand... who'd want to give Mistral the Relic of Destruction?

I'm having flashbacks to discussions about the Tears of the Prophets, given the different kinds of Orbs that cropped up.

edited 15th Jan '17 12:04:49 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44196: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:07:02 PM

Also Jovian, I disagree with saying volume 2 is the best, for me is the worst by long shot: pointless anime stuff like the dance, cringe arc like Jaunce and Phyrra that is pretty much otaku bait,
Season two actually significantly tones down the anime-ness (and cartonishness in general) from season one. Season one had stuff like Ruby turning into a chibi SD version of herself when she was nerding out over other students weapons, or full-on anime-style imagine spots. And most of the cringey stuff with Jaune and Pyrrha happens in season three, not season two. The stuff like the food fight and the dance was pointless in terms of plot advancement, which is a fair point, but they got some good character development out of it, so I don't feel like it was a waste of time (unlike most of season four so far, which I feel like could have been skipped entirely without losing anything).

Roman is good but a) he suddenly steal stuff off screen and them lose like chump in one of the most awfull fight(if you can call it like that) which it kinda screw the internal consistency of the whole thing.
Roman was never all that impressive a fighter. The only fight he actually wins is when he and Neo gang up on Ruby in season three (but then he's eaten by a plot griffin). Every other fight he's in, even ones where he has the advantage (like mooks on his side), he either runs away or is defeated, so I'm not sure why Blake beating him in a one-on-one fight where he has nowhere to run to is inconsistent with anything else we see him do.

And the worst would be the tone, since the grim invasion was deal so easly it dosent have the right transition to darkest tone of volume 3 which in turn create all the complain(incuding you jovian) about being so sudden.
That's more of a strike against season three than season two, in my mind. Season two takes the relatively laid back tone of season one (where the only ones at risk are the students themselves, and the teachers are mostly in the background to provide assistance if needed) and turns the tension up a notch or two (now there are innocent bystanders at risk if the heroes fail, and they're explicitly put in situations where their teachers can't bail them out if they need it). The fact that season three dials the tone up another ten notches all at once is on season three, not season two (which takes a tone that's a good, natural progression from season one).

But, anyway, I've mentioned this before but now they're really hammering in how Vale is the only "good" kingdom. Not even the best, because phrasing it like that implies the others are even decent.
Vale is definitely being presented as "the good guys", but Vacuo strikes me more as Heroic Neutral than anything else — they mostly just want to be left to do their own thing, but everyone else keeps butting into their business, which isn't exactly unsympathetic. Mantle and/or Atlas are more like a Well-Intentioned Extremist than actually evil; they have a habit of trying new and innovative things (focusing on technology over hunters, trying to reduce grimm attacks by reducing freedom of expression that can cause emotions that attract grimm) that don't always work out well, but are at least done with noble goals in mind. Mistral seems like the only one that can really be considered "bad", and that mostly because of the fact that their expansionist policy is what really started the Great War. How much that informs modern Mistral, the better part of a century later, remains to be seen.

edited 15th Jan '17 12:21:16 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#44197: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:12:29 PM

I still wonder where Neo is now. I really don't want her to be just thrown into the bus.

Only sometimes posts
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#44198: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:16:26 PM

Well, she is scheduled to come back and do a Heinous Thing eventually.

Like Kill Taiyang. Yang's storyline is just a little too calm (which isn't a bad thing, but that makes it all the more susceptible to a surprise mood swing).

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44199: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:17:15 PM

Maybe I didn't phrase it right, when I say "good" I don't just mean morally or ethically. Regardless of whether it was the people or government's fault, Vacuo doesn't seem like a place you'd actually want to live now or then. And in the current time the people are apparently a big part of that too. As Qrow put it, "Vacuo is...Vacuo."

Besides also being put in the best moral light, Vale really hasn't been described with any major issue that would make people not want to live their like a super corrupt council or a ridiculous "no arts or individual expression" law.

edited 15th Jan '17 12:37:52 PM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44200: Jan 15th 2017 at 12:25:47 PM

Roman was never all that impressive a fighter. The only fight he actually wins is when he and Neo gang up on Ruby in season three (but then he's eaten by a plot griffin). Every other fight he's in, even ones where he has the advantage (like mooks on his side), he either runs away or is defeated, so I'm not sure why Blake beating him in a one-on-one fight where he has nowhere to run to is inconsistent with anything else we see him do.

(but then he's eaten by a plot griffin).

Heh.

Roman was never all that impressive a fighter ... he either runs away or is defeated, so I'm not sure why Blake beating him in a one-on-one fight where he has nowhere to run to is inconsistent with anything else we see him do.

It's the principle of the thing. He goes from pulling off a surprising defense against Blake and Sun combined to getting wrecked solely by Blake.

And this is an eternal mark of shame.

Come to think of it, I'm not even sorry he's dead anymore. Good riddance. Illia's a better nemesis anyway.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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