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Sereg Since: Jun, 2010
#44026: Jan 9th 2017 at 4:52:03 PM

Except that's not what I said at all. I said that I don't like how the existence of the prior conversation seems to be getting used to muzzle those who dislike the character. We have reached a point where expressing any dislike of Sun, including something as mild as "I did not like how he was used in this episode" prompts not only an immediate defense of him from his fans, but also accusations of trying to reignite the argument.
You ‘’did not’’ say "I did not like how he was used in this episode". You said:

The Bad—Sun gets to save Blake again,

You aren’t saying that you dislike Sun. You’re saying that him performing a positive action is an inherent hit to the episode’s quality, that saving someone is an inherently bad thing and/or that there is an inherent problem with Sun saving Blake. So yes, that’s reigniting the argument. I don’t like the “Blake is useless” jokes either, but I recognise them as humour, as opposed to an attack on the very concept of heroism. And yes, I agree with Black Yakuza on the pettiness

Perhaps I am just overthinking this, but I think part of the reason the Blake/Sun debate has gotten so heated has less to do with Blake and Sun, and more to do with a more fundamental philosophical moral questions. It seems to me that the debate is more of a individual rights/ free will VS moral obligation debate. One side of the argument seems to be that Blake has the right to make her own decisions even if they might be self-destructive, and that Sun had no right to stalk her against her will, even if he might have done it to protect her. While the other side of the argument (for example, Sereg's post near the top of the previous page) suggests that Sun had a moral obligation to stalk Blake, and that Sun would be personally responsible for anything that happened to her if he didn't follow her. So, It seems to me (and I could be mistaken) that part of the argument boils down to a question of whether someone has the right to violate another person's rights and free will in order to protect them from themselves, or if a person should have the right to make potentially reckless decisions of their own free will without interference. If that's the case, I think the debate is more suited to the general philosophy thread instead of here. Of course, I could just be over-analyzing, but comments like "Sun would be a sociopath guilty of negligent homicide if he didn't stalk Blake" seem to point to a more fundamental philosophical question of morality than just being about Blake and Sun.

This is an accurate assessment.

(as a side note they also display no understanding of what actually qualifies one as a sociopath, be it colloquially or psychologically).

I was considering the symptoms of: reckless disregard for the safety of others, irresponsibility and lack of remorse, which are qualifiers of sociopathy (and only three symptoms are necessary for diagnosis. Admittedly, some of these would have to be displayed more consistently for diagnosis, but the point was attempting to mae ie. That it would be the action of a sociopath, stands)

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44027: Jan 9th 2017 at 5:06:45 PM

[up][up][up]the problem with that is the protagonist(in this case Weiss) arc is very weak so far, with only little snip here and there, while finding what happen to Penny,is "father" and Ironwood sound bigger, is no dificult to conect both as it happen to be in Atlas, faunus discrimination is more a plot element that afect other arcs.

[up][up]that sound good but again, it sound bad because we only see part of it, while the rest is focus on how shitty Jacques is.

[up]For me the issue is not that Sun did something wrong, because he did but the NATURE of said mistake, Ambar,Tobias and Jovian argue he is been a creep and the narrative move backward to justify is decision while others seen him as guy who made the right choice but the narrative is moving backward to make him comit mistakes so have some humor.

for me that is the real question: is the show making act stupier or is cover him up?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#44028: Jan 9th 2017 at 5:29:37 PM

People would have hated it being skipped over, so there would have been no way the writers could have won on this score.
I'm looking at it from the point of view of "what would make it a better story", not "what would make fans happy". The two are often at odds, since people frequently want to see their favorite character being cool instead of, you know, actually interesting things happening. More directly, some people are going to hate it no matter what the writers do and some people are going to love it no matter what they do. "Some people wouldn't like it" isn't really a point for or against the idea that Yang and Weiss's plots should have trimmed the fluff and started at roughly the point they've reached now.

Right now, Team RWBY has its very own Raven: Blake. Worse, Weiss runs a pretty close second.
Huh? I'm not seeing that at all. Raven seems to have some sort of Social Darwinist thing going on where she believes that only the strong deserve to survive and everyone else can go to hell. That's pretty toxic to a team mentality. Neither Blake nor Weiss have anything like that level of attitude problem.

Ultimately, that appears to be what's happening here: the girls are acknowledging their demons in a personal journey unique to each other. That should bring them out the other side more capable of committing long-term to each other as a team.
I mean, I agree that that's the theory, but it hasn't actually happened. Ruby's plot has been entirely about dealing with Salem's minions, not her personal issues. Blake's trying to deal with her personal issues but has mostly been sidetracked by White Fang shenanigans (though she gets points for actually having an emotional conversation with her dad, which is more than anyone else has managed in terms of character growth). Weiss's plot boils down to "Jacques is a dick" and Weiss hasn't done any growing or changing as a result. And Yang just went from Sad Yang back to Normal Yang without much else changing (though if we're lucky, her dad's talk about her semblance will bear some fruit in that regard... but I'm not holding my breath).

Really, this has been the single biggest flaw with RWBY in general. The characters are largely static and there's very little in the way of development. Ruby is slightly less happy-go-lucky than she was at the beginning (though that's largely a change in circumstances rather than a change in her characterization — she'll still laugh herself silly at something like Jaune's hoodie having a bunny on it), Weiss is still as entitled and arrogant as she always was, Blake is slowly getting over her "solve problems by running from them" schtick and has hands-down had the most development of the main four, and Yang is still Yang despite being Sad Yang for a while (and maybe, possibly becoming Less Angry Yang in the future).

Actually, the character who's gone through the most development in general is Jaune, and he's not even a main character. He's gone from comically inept and having a spine like a wet noodle to being a competent (if not exactly stellar) warrior and a confident leader (more so than Ruby, certainly, who never did much leading despite nominally being team leader of Team RWBY).

edited 9th Jan '17 5:31:02 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44029: Jan 9th 2017 at 5:54:35 PM

[up]skip it is not a good idea since in the case of weiss, they have been set her rebelion against her father and in the case of Yang, she suffer something pretty heavy, sure the way it deal is not the best but is waaaay better than just cut it like her arm.

"Blake's trying to deal with her personal issues but has mostly been sidetracked by White Fang shenanigans"

to be fair, those two are related consider her past.

"Weiss hasn't done any growing or changing as a result. "

she kinda rebel against her father, consider how much of her problem is about him, that kinda count as change.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#44030: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:03:47 PM

Just saw the episode:

  • Y: No way to help your depressed daughter like sucker-punching her in the face
  • W: I'm still hoping and not expecting that Whitley will be revealed to be something other than a one-dimensional Shitley.
  • B: Who didn't see it coming? I like Iris, though. Changing colors depending on emotions, like a real chameleon. Interesting that her horns were fake, as in part of the mask, but she still has her chameleon ponytail and scaly skin. (Also, I found the credit notes of "smaller bust and smaller butt" kinda funny, like they have to keep the modelers from going overboard.)
  • R: Really hoping Qrow doesn't bite it, but it's 50/50 at this point. And goddammit, give us that Renora backstory already. Liking that Ren is showing a lot more character now, though. And the brohug was neat.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#44032: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:19:09 PM

@Jovian: There was some character development for Ruby and Weiss...Over the course of volume 1, with Ruby becoming less awkward/shy and Weiss becoming less of an Alpha Bitch in the course of about a hour's worth of screentime. Yet another example of the show's bizare pacing.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#44033: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:32:43 PM

You know... This is probably not what M&K intended this arc of Weiss' to be like, but with the way it's been written so far, I honestly sympathize with Whitley more on this. You don't get to throw a year-long hissy fit, leave the family for an entire year and then just waltz back in expecting the company to be handed to you on a silver platter because birthright, especially when you've got another person equally deserving of it.

I mean, what was Weiss' long-term plan? Did she really think she could leave Atlas for four or more years to get her Hunter training and then show up back at home expecting her brother to just... hand it to her, considering he, at that point, would have to be the only one putting up with their father's bullshit since Winter bailed on them even earlier than Weiss? Did Weiss seriously think Whitley would willingly rake himself across the metaphorical coals and not exploit the opportunity that was Weiss trying to cut all ties with the person who still owns the goddamn company?

Certainly him taking advantage of this situation was manipulative, but frankly, he's just plain not wrong. From his perspective he must be the only one to actually give a shit about how this hulking colossus is run. Neither of his sisters seem to give a fuck about, you know, actually doing something to deserve being the CEO of the largest Dust manufacturer on Remnant, with one fucking off to the military, while the other was entirely content on also fucking off to another kingdom for a minimum of four years. He doesn't have the training the sisters have, he hasn't even inherited their stupid Semblance. Was he supposed to just deal with their clearly abusive father for these four years and then just... give up the company when Weiss showed up back at their doorstep?

An interesting post.

edited 9th Jan '17 6:33:06 PM by Ninety

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44034: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:38:00 PM

The only thing I could think of when Weiss was crying on her bed was "boohoo, now I'm almost one of the common folk! Truly, my life is the worst!"

There are plenty of things they could focus on - Jacques forcing her to sing, not wanting her to freely roam the party - but they've put more emphasis on how entitled and frankly dense she is being.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44035: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:39:28 PM

I'll hold my opinion on Weiss until the season is over, because right now I'm only concerned with how boring her side of the plot is.

edited 9th Jan '17 6:39:38 PM by VeryMelon

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44036: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:49:31 PM

Speaking of Weiss, her fully summoning the Knight Thing was a lot less impressive than it should have been. Like, it looked way too small.

And the stuff about Whitley being the only one interested in learning to run the company does make a lot more sense when they have things like him actually being interested in interacting with likely future business partners. Not really sure if the writers get that, though.

It's pretty interesting to contrast opinions here with reactors on You Tube. They were all basically, "GO Weiss! Why can't her brother and father realize how shitty they are and just kill themselves already?"

edited 9th Jan '17 6:51:04 PM by LSBK

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44037: Jan 9th 2017 at 6:58:03 PM

the problem with that post is that it implies he suffer the abusive of is father, which I dont see....so far it seen he never try to rebel and is father never pick him for that.

Which so far is the other problem of the critic, dealing with the company so far is also dealing with Jacques controling behivor, both are the same which I get why Weiss is angrey: she have done what he wants and even them, the moment she said something he disagree, he take her position away.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#44038: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:14:15 PM

[up][up] Meh.Its hard for the viewers to look past Jacques Abusive Parent Status.

As for Whitley being the only one interested into running the company,Is he? We've really havent haven seen anything that suggest that Whitley did this for anything other than Sibling Bragging right.

Likewise we havent seen him do anything that would suggest that he's actually deserving of the SDC anymore than Wesis beyond being Daddys golden child

edited 9th Jan '17 7:17:33 PM by DeanCole

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#44039: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:21:09 PM

If they take Whitley in a more sympathetic direction, it'll almost certainly turn out he resent Winter and Weiss for abandoning him with their alcoholic mother and abusive father.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44040: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:21:26 PM

By expressing actual interests in learning and being involved with the company, or at least the business world, paints him in a better light in that regards than Weiss. People have been going "sexist!" with Jacques, and that's very possible, but at the moment we don't really have a reason to think he favors Whitley beyond Whitley actually being more reasonable/caring about this stuff.

Weiss obviously has ideas about what she wants to do but there's been nothing said on if she actually knows how to do them. Like fixing the companies labor practices to be fair to workers and do decently for the company.

edited 9th Jan '17 7:22:34 PM by LSBK

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#44041: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:22:56 PM

Yeah, Whitley hasn't done anything to imply that. It's people inserting whys to his behavior as opposed to the actual reason. We still don't know what drives him at all and any positive interpretation is as theory based as negative ones.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44042: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:30:24 PM

[up]I can agree with that. Whitley has no display motive for taking over so far, so saying he's in the right is a little early.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44043: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:33:33 PM

I think it's less he's in the right and more that inadvertently it's pretty easy to see things counter to Rooser Teeth's vision.

I'm still confused on how he was supposed to be manipulating her anyway. They did not pull that off well, at all.

edited 9th Jan '17 7:35:09 PM by LSBK

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#44044: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:35:24 PM

[up][up][up][up] My opinion he is more that like Whitley because he stays in line.You see it sometime in shows the have abusive parents.

The more aggressive sibling gets the most abuse,the more passive gets spared.Wesis and Winter rebeled so they're bad.Whitley stays quiet so he is good.

As for him showing interest.I'ed have to ask when?

edited 9th Jan '17 7:38:06 PM by DeanCole

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#44045: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:51:07 PM

[up]yeah, but I dont think he see is father as abusive, he just agree with him.

I mean, as other troper said, always go with the simpliest route with RWBY: Jacques is bad, Whietly suport is fathere and see him as right, therefore Jacques give him the company because Weiss cant obey which mean she is good.

that it, is pretty damn simplistic but that it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#44046: Jan 9th 2017 at 7:52:17 PM

[up][up][up] Oh yeah, that makes no sense to me as well. I think what they wanted was that he was encouraging her to do stuff that would backfire by being supportive, but, well, that makes no damn sense. It's why I said earlier the plot would be improved if we saw him actively encouraging and maneuvering her.

[up] That's how see it. We know he's the favorite and no signs of abuse with him, so I'm just going to assume he's simply with his dad until I'm giving reason to believe otherwise. I never trusted Whitley and I feel all positive theories with him right now are based on hopes for more out of him or so positive side to him. I just don't have that faith in the show, as much as I like it.

edited 9th Jan '17 7:56:28 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#44047: Jan 9th 2017 at 8:45:51 PM

To be honest, at this point I don't know what sun haters are trying to push besides blind gnashing of teeth. We all know he is not a good human being, but I don't understand why people are trying to use that as reason for him being a bad character. If every character in fiction was wonderful, we would be watching teletubbies.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44049: Jan 9th 2017 at 8:49:50 PM

He likes his strawmen. I wouldn't think too hard about it.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#44050: Jan 9th 2017 at 8:52:52 PM

Given that Sun is a faunus, I imagine he is one of the worst human beings in the show. [lol]

Had to make that joke! That aside, I'm staying out of that convo. Others have stated my outlook and while there is a question I'd like to ask there, at this point I'm exhausted with all that. I actually was partially avoiding this thread just because I'm tired of it.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.

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