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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43676: Jan 2nd 2017 at 8:44:56 PM

That's my thing tho, yes her Dad is a jerk and the show acknowledges that, I have no issue with that. My problem is that the show seem to frame Weiss as the victim of the whole situation and doesn't seem to put any sort of blame on her at all, despite how antagonistic she's been to her family for very little reason.

I mean, her Dad is a self-serving SOB mostly concerned about his reputation but he didn't actually do anything antagonistic until Weiss started acting out.

edited 2nd Jan '17 8:46:39 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#43677: Jan 2nd 2017 at 8:50:02 PM

[up]... so we're victim blaming now? Because that's what Weiss is, a victim of Parental Abuse

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43678: Jan 2nd 2017 at 8:55:25 PM

Are you just going to ignore everything she did leading up to Jacques locking her up? D Id someone else not point out how out of line she was? That is exactly what I'm talking about; people are so caught up with "Awww, poor Weiss, fuck Jacques" that they're kind of ignoring the part she played in it too.

edited 2nd Jan '17 8:56:03 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#43679: Jan 2nd 2017 at 8:58:38 PM

[up]He seemed to show no concern to what being in the middle of a battlefield might have actually done to Weiss. He seemed only interested in what her experience can do for his publicity and how dealing with the callous wealthy might trigger if she is pushed. He didn't discipline her for almost murder he did because of what her outburst cost without thinking that outburst might be legitimate issue and she needs someone to talk to work out why she suddenly just snapped.

He forced her to be there and he seemed more interested in exploiting her then making sure she was adjusting to post fall of beacon. Yeah she snapped, but she was not exactly wrong in the fact that those people were idiots. A kingdom just fell and peoples lives are in ruin and some idiot claims they deserved it. Then there is the idiot that can't even pick up that the person your talking to is slowly but surely getting agitated.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:03:43 PM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#43680: Jan 2nd 2017 at 8:59:37 PM

Well, you also have to remember that Jacques basically forced her to sing for that event too. And that he forced her away from her friends without giving her a chance to say goodbye. Or that he tried to keep her at his side when she wanted to get a drink at the party.

It's not just the slap really.

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#43681: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:01:36 PM

Again. Weiss is a victim of an Abusive Parent. If Jacques wasn't shown to be an abusive asshole, and heavily implied to be abusive by Weiss in as early as Volume 1, it'd be different.

But the simple fact is that you're essentially defending an Abusive Parent, and claiming that more abuse from him is justified.

Is Weiss out of line? Yes, she is. But ignoring the abuse, that was all-but-stated three seasons ago to be a long-time thing, and then shown more of, and claiming more abuse from Jacques is justified? No. You're wrong.

[down]I think it's more that he basically took her away and didn't even allow her to say goodbye to her friends.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:04:40 PM by BlackSunNocturne

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43682: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:02:52 PM

Okay, shitting on Jacques aside, are we really trying to make "Get my daughter out of monster infested hellzone" into a sign of bad parenting on his part?

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#43683: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:04:57 PM

I have no problem with Jacques doing that. Hell, it's the one thing I'll give him leeway on. But I do think Weiss should've been allowed to let her friends know what was happening herself.

Hell if it wasn't for Qrow catching wind of it, Ruby never would've found out what happened to Weiss.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43684: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:06:31 PM

We don't know that she didn't get to do that. Yang said he took her away, that says nothing about whether or not she said goodbye to people. And the circumstances surrounding Yang, Ruby, and Blake make not sticking around for goodbyes understandable.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#43685: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:07:45 PM

[up][up][up] That might be the only decent thing he did for her even if he probably had his own agenda in regards to that.

What he failed to do was make sure the daughter he pulled out of a war-zone was alright or even just sit down and have a father daughter conversation with her that has nothing to do with family name or business dealings. Things like seeing how she is holding up after what she saw or anything like that.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:08:18 PM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43686: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:13:27 PM

Ok, I'm going to put this in bold so people can't misterpret because there's so much miscommunication that it's honestly annoying.

I AM NOT JUSTIFYING HER FATHER'S ABUSE. I AM ARGUING THE FACT THAT THE STORY DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT WEISS WAS ACTING PRETTY OUT OF LINE IN GENERAL AND IS FIRMLY ON HER SIDE AND ACTS AS IF SHE'S COMPLETELY INNOCENT. COMPRENDE?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#43687: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:15:53 PM

Yeah, I'm having trouble seeing how you're getting victim blaming from "the show isn't acknowledging the flaws in Weiss' actions in favor of just putting her father up as the villain".

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#43688: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:21:29 PM

[up][up]It's easy when the other side is worse and the fact that Weiss probably shouldn't have been forced to be at that party to begin with instead she probably should have been seeing a therapist because when the other side is father that exploits his kid child that was in the middle of a war zone instead of being a parent I will blame what incident happens on that parent not actually being a parent.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:21:41 PM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43689: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:21:36 PM

Hard for me to find fault in most of anything Weiss did all season when Best Dad is responsible in some way for it.

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#43690: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:24:33 PM

[up][up], [up]I had a long-ass post, but you two basically summed it up.

If the show called out Weiss on "acting out of line" when her acting out of line was trying to defy an abusive father, people would have been literally out for Miles and Kerry's blood.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:25:51 PM by BlackSunNocturne

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43691: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:28:19 PM

[up][up][up], [up][up] And that's my problem; I feel less like I'm against Jacques for being a terrible person and more because he antagonizes one of the main characters. Or to put it simply, he's a "villain" not because of any real villainous traits but because he has a negative impact on one of the main characters and only because of that.

It's a hair's short away from being a Designated Villain and only avoids it because he's not completely devoid of antagonistic traits. It's similar to Adam actually, expect he gets a bit more villain cred for running a terrorist organization and the character he antagonizes is more sympathetic in this scenario.

[up]Yea no, unless a character's actions are a direct consequence of another, I don't hold them to any special standards. Even if they're main characters.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:31:27 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#43692: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:38:34 PM

Pretty sure he is a villain because he is a terrible parent and cut throat businessman. He makes himself out to be the good guy in his conversation about wages, but one guy poked holes real easy in regards to the problem fanus are having in Atlas. He didn't make a counter point he just ignored the conversation for a while.

Pretty sure he is the villain in this situation because he decided to exploit weiss his daughter instead of being a parent. He forced her to sing and be at that party with people that seemed to think Vale deserved what happened to them.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43693: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:42:19 PM

Ya know, maybe it's because the supernatural nature of the series...but that first one rings really low on the villain scale when our apparent main villain leads an army of undead creatures hellbent on destroying humanity.

But that's just me really.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:42:57 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#43694: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:45:36 PM

[up][up][up] Problem being that that not everyone is going to view it that way.I do see his point that putting Wesis in the negative for acting out against her abusive father at that very moment would come across as Victim blaming for some regardless of the actual intent.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:48:00 PM by DeanCole

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#43695: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:51:02 PM

[up][up]Let's look at it this way:

Salem, the Big Bad, hasn't directly affected the lives of any of the major characters yet. Jacques is a more personal sort of villain.

You see it all the time in different series. You have the Big Bad whom is a major, world-destroying threat, but the most hated/vile villain is the more personal one. Look at Lord Voldemort and Dolores Umbridge for example. The first is the Big Bad, one of the most vile villains in literature; the other is straight-up vile, personally affected the main characters and was routinely shown to be the worst kind of person.note 

Guess who's the one people hate more?

Fan reactions always go like that. A personal evil is more vile than a world-threatening one.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:58:21 PM by BlackSunNocturne

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#43696: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:54:41 PM

[up][up][up] The people more concerned with their image and good name are just as much part of the problem because those are the kind of people Salem probably wants in positions of power so they will be too busy missing the big picture until it is far to late to do anything about it.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:54:51 PM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
EviIPaladin Some Guy Or Something from Middle-Of-Nowhere, NS Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: Noddin' my head like yeah
Some Guy Or Something
#43697: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:48:57 PM

Pretty simple reason why fans feel that way (in terms of Big Bads vs Umbridges).

Not a lot of people will have an opportunity to meet someone who plans on destroying the planet or ruling it or whatever ridiculous over-the-top plan the main villain has. Almost everyone will, however, know someone who is a despicable person. Someone who isn't out to rule the world but just seems to take a bit too much pleasure in making other people miserable.

Personal evil hits way closer to home for a lot of people than grandiose evil. Since it's more relatable, it's more deplorable.

"Evii is right though" -Saturn "I didn't know you were a bitch Evii." -Lior Val
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#43698: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:44:29 PM

RE: Weiss

Honestly my biggest issue with her arc isn't in this episode, but in the prior one. We are supposed to side with Weiss for calling out the Atlas elites for being a bunch of selfish pricks who don't care about anyone else. The problem is that one of said elites spends most of the party arguing with Jacques, and making the case for Faunus rights directly to his face. Weiss hears him do it too—she's standing right beside her dad while this apparently random party guest deconstructs Jacques' self-serving arguments and points out all the ways in which the SDC is oppressing the Faunus.

Then a few minutes later she's screaming at everyone at the party and insisting they are all dicks, because of what Henry and a random drunken idiot said. Now, don't get me wrong—anyone can blow up, and at any gathering, however filled with jerks, there will almost always be one decent person. That's realistic. But from a storytelling perspective it doesn't work, because we spend far more time with Random Decent Party guest than we do with the drunken moron. After Henry he's the party guest we hear the most from. Which means the episode does a pretty poor job of actually setting Weiss' outburst up to be legitimate—which is a problem, since all the framing, and Ironwood's comments at the end make it clear we are supposed to agree with her.

RE: Jacques

Jacques is an emotionally abusive and manipulative bastard, which makes taking anything he says at face value extremely difficult. He's not wrong that Weiss is acting entitled, but since he's the one responsible for making her into this sort of broken mess he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. It'd be a little like Adam calling out Blake for having trust issues. Yeah, she does have those problems. You created them (and unlike some other television abusers I can think of, such as Lionel Luthor, you don't even tacitly acknowledge that this is your fault).

I do agree with Jovian though that Weiss simply being handed eventual control over the company via plot fiat would be a shame. I almost guarantee it will happen, but it'd be a shame. I'd like to see her earn control of it, in one way or another. Now obviously that's potentially hazardous water to tread given who is currently in charge of the company, but I'd still like it if they found a way to pull it off.

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#43699: Jan 3rd 2017 at 12:10:16 AM

I mean, there's at least one way Weiss could get control of the SDC, and I don't think anyone in the fanbase would mind.

edited 3rd Jan '17 12:10:28 AM by BlackSunNocturne

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#43700: Jan 3rd 2017 at 12:44:33 AM

I doubt that Weiss can get control of the SDC: her dad and brother really have that "she's just an out of control brat" nailed down.

The problem is that she needs to get out of her father's grip. Ironwood can't do anything because Jacques is still her father and has parental rights. Unless he gets proof that Weiss is abused/in danger there's not much he can do.

Just giving Weiss control over the SDC this or next volume would be hack writing. Babylon Five had the liberation of Earth spaced out over 3 seasons. Weiss needs to make a break from daddy and then take back the company or strike out on her own.

edited 3rd Jan '17 12:46:46 AM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....

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