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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#43526: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:37:52 AM

[up]Agreed. Even if I could ignore my issues with his presentation—which is pretty bloody hard at this point—the fact remains that he's not contributing anything especially important. He's getting near as much attention as Blake, a main character, yet provides far less to the story than she does.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43527: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:42:19 AM

[up]Exactly. I feel like Yang could have taken Sun's role and the whole experience would be better.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:42:55 AM by VeryMelon

Cross (Don’t ask)
#43528: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:46:56 AM

Including or excluding the main problems attributed to the stalking?

FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#43529: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:50:53 AM

Sun has been relegated to a comic relief character, but combined with his tactless personality - because the man is pretty tactless - it doesn't work out well. Also, no, Blake hitting him, twice, is not in any way, shape or form an acceptable social behavior and it's her way of venting out her frustrations on him.

He hasn't eavsdropped either unless there's been some blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment of him peering through the window. Sun is no saint and the brand of comedy he's been outfitted with is mediocre at best, but he doesn't deserve to be used as Blake's personal stress ball just because he tries to help (in his own, tactless way).

Jacques is a dick though. Here's hoping Wheatley does have more to him in the end.

[up] No doubt some people would see Yang stalking Blake as "romantic" and "friend's concern" and what have you.

edited 2nd Jan '17 9:51:21 AM by FergardStratoavis

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43530: Jan 2nd 2017 at 9:56:51 AM

[up][up]I feel those problems came from Sun's character and personality, which Yang doesn't share.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#43531: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:00:24 AM

[up]both actually, it came because Sun chararter isnt apropite for that type of humor, if it was jaunce them it would feel better because he is clumsy enought to those situation to function, this anime/sitcom humor dosent work on Sun.

And yeah, it also because he like Blake which it "taint" their interaction.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43532: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:03:50 AM

I don't remember anything about Sun from the previous seasons. His character didn't leave any impressions on me until season 4. That being said, I'm only arguing based on what I've seen onscreen and can remember of Yang and Sun's characters from season 4. It's more interesting to me.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#43533: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:11:17 AM

From previous seasons, he is more of a funny guy who just wander out there doing things, think like Johnny cage but without the puns, that is why I feel this comedy thing about him is not working because is not the right chararter.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43534: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:13:20 AM

I feel like I would remember Sun if he had a character like that, but I guess I found him too bland to invest any attention too.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43535: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:14:14 AM

He's getting near as much attention as Blake, a main character, yet provides far less to the story than she does.

Since you brought this up in the hypothetical situation of of overlooking your other problems I have to say, character dynamics and their roles change. Maybe they want him to be more prominent now. Ren and Nora certainly are shaping up to be despite (nominally) being "main" characters before probably actually had as much to do as Sun did before. If you're complaining about him being a waste that way you might as well say the same thing about them (or at least Nora).

[up]I haven't found anything he's done particularly out of his character mode, just exaggerated to an annoying effect.

edited 2nd Jan '17 10:16:11 AM by LSBK

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#43536: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:34:04 AM

So far Sun is there to provide humor and give Blake a friend, granted the humor used kinda undermind the point but otherwise is not a bad idea to bring him, the series have already too many chararters to not use some.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#43537: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:36:18 AM

There's a massive difference and the two situations ultimately aren't particularly comparable.

Which was the same agurement people were using against you when you were calling Winter a abuser way back when.

You didnt accept that position then.But seem to be willing to use it now.

edited 2nd Jan '17 10:38:06 AM by DeanCole

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43538: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:49:15 AM

Ambar's positions on Sun and Winter aren't hypocritical, he just didn't have to make that particular argument at the time.

edited 2nd Jan '17 10:49:25 AM by VeryMelon

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#43539: Jan 2nd 2017 at 10:57:25 AM

I have to disagree.He was more than willing to acknowledge the differences between Blake hitting Sun and abusive behaviour.(Which I agree with for the record)

But isnt willing to do the same with Winter and Wesis.Thats all I'm saying

edited 2nd Jan '17 11:01:10 AM by DeanCole

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#43540: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:13:50 AM

There is a huge difference between getting slapped by a sibling and getting slapped by a parent, especially since the context for both slaps is different.

ch00beh ??? from Who Knows Where Since: Jul, 2010
???
#43541: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:23:25 AM

sun's role for the plot is to provide proactivity against blake's pure reactivity. his role hasn't been conveyed particularly well, though. the other problem going on is that his sympathy is way way down, and we haven't been reminded of his competence, so he's just been flat this entire volume.

"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." Twitter
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#43542: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:24:58 AM

If you're complaining about him being a waste that way you might as well say the same thing about them (or at least Nora).

The difference is that Nora and Ren didn't get the kind of character focus Sun has gotten this season. They were around, but the focus was on Jaune and Pyrrha (now on Jaune and Ruby). Sun has gotten a lot of dialogue (at least comparable to his screentime) yet it hasn't gone anywhere and that's the part that makes him feel like a placeholder.

Which was the same agurement people were using against you when you were calling Winter a abuser way back when.

No. People were claiming that Winter had a right to slap Weiss out of nowhere for not giving her the answer she wanted to hear. Blake, conversely, slapped Sun for stalking her and then eavesdropping on a private conversation.

Sun behaved inappropriately and received a negative response. Weiss did quite literally nothing wrong and received a negative response. Notice the difference?

That's without even getting into the fact, of course, that Weiss and Winter's relationship with their abusive father puts Winter striking Weiss in a very different context than Blake hitting Sun. Winter's continuing an abusive trend that began at home. Blake trying to get the guy who freaking stalked her to stop doing that.

He was more than willing to acknowledge the differences between Blake hitting Sun and abusive behaviour.(Which I agree with for the record)

But isnt willing to do the same with Winter and Wesis.Thats all I'm saying

Because there is a difference between Blake hitting Sun and abusive behaviour. There is not a difference between Winter hitting Weiss and abusive behaviour (there's a difference between what Winter does and what Adam does, certainly, but that doesn't mean she's not abusive, it means he's especially so). Striking the guy who has been stalking you and is still acting inappropriately is a very different thing from striking your younger sibling for not giving you the answer you wanted to hear.

That's without getting into the fact that you're misrepresenting not only my part in the discussion about Winter, but large parts of the conversation about her, much of which was as much about bad first impressions and her fight with Qrow as it was about the nature (and scale) of abuse.

Still, I'll spell it out one last time—Blake struck her stalker. Winter struck someone for not telling her what she wanted to hear. The former is not abusive. The latter is, if not abusive, certainly trending that way if it's part of a pattern (and since it's Winter's Establishing Character Moment there's not a lot of reason to think otherwise).

Exactly. I feel like Yang could have taken Sun's role and the whole experience would be better.
Including or excluding the main problems attributed to the stalking?

Excluding. That was always gonna be a problem no matter who did it. You might be able to make a case that Yang doing it would be slightly less problematic since she has no clearly expressed sexual interest in Blake (yet) and that in her case the reasons why she couldn't bring the rest of the team are clear (avoiding the "where are Sage, Scarlet, and Neptune" problem) but it would still be deeply problematic, because you don't get to stalk your friends.

He hasn't eavsdropped either unless there's been some blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment of him peering through the window.

His falling through the door is a classic comedic trope used to indicate that someone was listening at the door/window/what-have-you and then leaned on it too hard. If that's not the impression they were going for they really shouldn't have used that trope. Which in general is part of the problem with how Sun is written this season. The following Blake thing is still hanging over him and everything he does will be seen through that lens, which is something the writers don't seem to get.

Also, no, Blake hitting him, twice, is not in any way, shape or form an acceptable social behavior and it's her way of venting out her frustrations on him.

I'd say it's her striking the guy who already stalked her without her permission, inserted himself into her meeting with her family, and has now eavesdropped upon and then crashed into her private meeting with her father. The moment he did that, he pretty much lost the right to expect any sort of positive social reaction from her.

the other problem going on is that his sympathy is way way down, and we haven't been reminded of his competence, so he's just been flat this entire volume.

This I concur with. It's not impossible to make someone like me enjoy Sun again, but they would have to stop with the stupidity. Right now "followed Blake for months" is his defining character trait and that desperately needs to be replaced by something else.

There is a huge difference between getting slapped by a sibling and getting slapped by a parent, especially since the context for both slaps is different.

There's also a huge difference between striking the guy who is stalking you, and striking your sister for not saying what you wanted her to say.

I'll also note as I did above, that Jacques' behaviour in some ways makes Winter's retrospectively worse. By making him an overtly abusive father they throw all sorts of complications into the Winter/Weiss relationship and dynamic. Hopefully by the next time we see Winter the writers will have realized that and will handle things accordingly.

edited 2nd Jan '17 11:31:44 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#43543: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:29:15 AM

Sun's problems isn't necessarily he's comic relief...it's that he's not funny, at all. I get what RT are trying to do with him, making him a Lovable Rogue...except they suck at it,so much.

So as a result, he comes as extremely grating in their attempt at making him funny.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#43544: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:31:06 AM

[up]Concurred. And that in turn makes any other problems someone might have with the character so much worse.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43545: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:31:36 AM

Well, they suck at it with us. There are plenty of people who have found everything with him as funny and/or endearing.

Even his stuff in ep 5 was kind of amusing.

edited 2nd Jan '17 11:32:43 AM by LSBK

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#43546: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:32:58 AM

[up]I suppose. It's not like we can speak to anybody else's sense of humour. Speaking for me personally, the moment they had Sun stalk Blake on the boat, they killed a lot of the potential funny with him. So much of the kind of comedy they're trying to do with him relies on bursting into situations and places where he shouldn't be, which at least for me, just serves as a reminder that he really should not be here.

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#43547: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:33:02 AM

Aren't Lovable Rogues supposed to be more snarky than slapstick-y?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43548: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:35:55 AM

The boat stuff would have been a lot better if they didn't have him wearing a cloak or trying to run away from her for no reason. He's in the opening, it's not like it was hard to figure out who it was.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#43549: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:36:03 AM

Plucky sounds like a better descriptor than those two, really.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43550: Jan 2nd 2017 at 11:36:19 AM

Excluding. That was always gonna be a problem no matter who did it. You might be able to make a case that Yang doing it would be slightly less problematic since she has no clearly expressed sexual interest in Blake (yet) and that in her case the reasons why she couldn't bring the rest of the team are clear (avoiding the "where are Sage, Scarlet, and Neptune" problem) but it would still be deeply problematic, because you don't get to stalk your friends.

The stalking issues can't really be removed from the equation because I didn't want to dig too deeply into "rewrite the story the way I want" territory. By itself it would lend to understandable tension between Blake and Yang, but that would at least be more interesting to watch over Sun's one man train-wreck of a presence.


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