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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42951: Dec 18th 2016 at 4:00:07 PM

That's true, but being horrified at being stuck somewhere surrounded by vicious monsters doesn't indicate anything other than a functioning sense of self-preservation. Their expressions are basically the same, but given of what we've seen of them prior to that, I read that as Mercury saying to himself "holy crap, these people could have me killed whenever the hell they want and there's not a damn thing I could do to stop them" and Emerald saying to herself "holy crap, these people control the monsters that have been trying to exterminate humanity since time immemorial, and I'm on their side?"

edited 18th Dec '16 4:00:40 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#42952: Dec 18th 2016 at 4:16:13 PM

If you ask me, this a typical case of "The good, the grey and the bad", Ozpin and is brotherhood are grey chararter who hide truth about the nature of grimm and plot without anyone know, something even Salem point out, Salem is clearly the bad guy(well, gal? I dont know) but she is recruting so far people who have grunge against the System for some reason or another: Mercury and assasin,Emerald a thief, Adam the terrorist and so on, while there is RWBY who are part of the System create by Ozpin but dosent have anything to do with is choices.

@Jovian: I dont think is that strightforward, their reaction seen more about the nature of their boss, they are new recruit for what it show and I dont think they saw seen Salem so is only now they began to understand what she it is, if anything it will take longer for any of them to change sides

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#42953: Dec 18th 2016 at 4:36:20 PM

In Real Life, a common tactic to get people to do hideous things is to start small - petty crimes or brutality building up to larger crimes then going full A Nazi by Any Other Name.

Salem plays the long game, but she does need Cinder as a vessel for the maiden's powers. I suspect that the plan was to get Emerald and Mercury to go along with Roman and Neo. If Ozpin took out R&N? Emerald and Mercury could take their place, with Emerald taking Cinder's place in a pinch (unlikely but if Summer was alive, Cinder would get burned).

After the fall of Beacon, Salem is betting "Sunk Cost Fallacy" - Merc and Em are in too deep. Salem doesn't need them as long as Cinder is on the mend. But at this point where can they go?

Now Mercury is a lot like Roman - a nihilist who sees the world as what he can get out of it at the expense of others.

Emerald can go either way - a full on Villainous Breakdown where she takes it out on team RWBY or a Heel–Face Turn - in her case not so much as a friend to team RWBY as against Salem.

But we'd have to get there.

No I can't see Emerald going full on meltdown unless something happens to Cinder. More likely she'd try to run when things go bad. Blake ran because she felt she let Yang down. Emerald would run because she has no other choice.

edited 18th Dec '16 4:36:28 PM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#42954: Dec 18th 2016 at 4:46:12 PM

On Salem's name, the English "Salem" has a couple of origins: the Arabic and Hebrew connection, meaning "peace", which is the one the fandom favours for several reasons. However, it also has a separate English meaning, coming from a corruption of an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "village/hamlet near the sallow trees" (ie, willow trees).

I would guess it's a hint of who she was before what she now is. In the introductory narration, Ozpin's first words in this show are an admonishment to Salem about how she's long forgotten nobler sentiments. I'm convinced Salem was a good person to begin with, and that she had probably been buoyed by the hope and faith Ozpin has in the future - and then she was absolutely crushed. Something terrible happened and, among other things, all that hope was destroyed, she crossed the Despair Event Horizon and became what she is now.

And that is why she's so obsessed with destroying Ozpin's optimism. Songs like Divide make it clear that she wants Ozpin to lose his hope. There's a deep hatred for the way Ozpin builds up hope in people and in his generally optimistic outlook. She wants him to suffer despair. She doesn't want him to 'burn' until after he's experienced true despair.

As far as I'm concerned, the opening narration, the closing narration at the end of Volume 3, and the song lyrics all point to someone whose hope was massively built up by Ozpin, so that they had a great height to fall from when they crashed through the Despair Event Horizon; as a result, they are absolutely determined to make sure Ozpin experiences that exact same fall through the horizon to join her.

I will expect the name Salem to accurately reflect the person she used to be before she fell, and now she has become the exact opposite of what she once was. She has become exactly what she once fought against.

So, what happened to her is the turning point - it's what turned her evil, and it's what turned Ozpin into The Atoner.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#42955: Dec 18th 2016 at 4:47:11 PM

@Jovian Going to have to agree to disagree on that one.From what we've actually seen I can't buy that she's on the verge of turning.

Yes she does acknowledge on some level that what she's doing is bad.However she goes right back to being Cinder right hand (of this case mouthpiece).Seemly of her own accord.Perhaps my opinion of her will change during the course of the series but for now this us my view point.

She seems to have a My master right or Wrong relationship with Cinder.So if her does turn it will probably be because of something that happens to Cinder

edited 18th Dec '16 4:50:59 PM by DeanCole

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#42956: Dec 18th 2016 at 5:03:26 PM

Roman is move by despair(sweet,sweet despair....) since he know what is going on and belive nobody can stop them(and so far, he is right) Mercury on the other hand is more a bully, he seen to regard things a some sort of bloody game

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#42957: Dec 18th 2016 at 5:18:43 PM

@Salem and Team WTCH

Seriously? [lol]

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42958: Dec 18th 2016 at 5:21:00 PM

[up][up][up][up] I'm not sure the name won't have any significance in regards to the present day Salem/her motives, though I suspect what you're saying about the relationship between Ozpin and Salem is true. Incidentally, I feel like the manner in which Ozpin betrayed her will in some way be evocative of the Salem witch trials and/or of some of the nastiness the Wizard of Oz got involved in during the books the character originated from.

As far as Ozpin goes, I'm not sure he's really playing the part of The Atoner in earnest; "Divide" seems to imply that, at least from Salem's point of view (and Cinder's from "Sacrifice"), Ozpin is sending people to die in his place because he doesn't want to truly face the consequences of what he's done. I don't think he's malevolent, but I do suspect it might be like the villain of the Elf village arc of Dragon Age Origins, who could have broken the curse he asks the party to deal with (and which he in fact created) at any time, albeit at the cost of his immortality and his life.

edited 18th Dec '16 6:13:12 PM by CaptainCapsase

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42959: Dec 18th 2016 at 5:43:28 PM

@Jovian Going to have to agree to disagree on that one.From what we've actually seen I can't buy that she's on the verge of turning.
I didn't say she was on the verge of turning — I said she'd need at least one more big push (something else on the scale of the fall of Beacon) and she'd need to be confident that she could not only escape, but actually stay out of Cinder's (and Salem's) hands once she had left. I'd certainly like to see her defect, as it'd be the first time RWBY really played with a Heel–Face Turn or Face–Heel Turn, but there are plenty of ways the story could turn out without that happening, either because she never decides that what Cinder and Salem are doing is really wrong, or else because she believes that it's wrong but isn't willing to risk her own neck by leaving.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#42960: Dec 18th 2016 at 6:14:59 PM

As far as Ozpin goes, I'm not sure he's really playing the part of The Atoner in earnest; "Divide" seems to imply that, at least from Salem's point of view (and Cinder's; "such arrogance..."), Ozpin is sending people to die in his place because he doesn't want to truly face the consequences of what he's done.

That's taking one biased source and reaching conclusions based solely on their own point-of-view. At no point has any song given us Ozpin's point-of-view. Even in the show, he's still an enigma. As is usual in storytelling, the villainous side (especially when there's a partial truth involved) is built up first to paint the relevant person in as bad a light as possible. Depending on the story, he'll either explain the full story (ie, given the context the villain is avoiding) or refuse to defend himself and simply let the protagonists swallow the villainous version wholesale.

Either way, by the end of the story, the protagonists have usually come to understand the full picture and separate out the true differences between the non-perfect ally and the villain.

In this show itself, we've heard Ozpin make a tired, wry observation to Ruby that he's made more mistakes than anyone else on the planet. I don't believe he's not facing his mistakes. I believe that he's acting on things in the only way he knows how or can think of.

The villain songs stink of obsessing over the mistakes of others as a way of taking responsibility for how far over the line people are allowed to go before calling some out on their shit becomes simply an excuse to justify their own unjustifiable behaviour.

The song doesn't come across as a genuine claim that Ozpin is sending others to die in his place because Salem seems to want him to suffer before he's allowed to die (or whatever 'burn' means in her speech). While she put on a show for her subordinates, when only Cinder's group is around, she actually seems quite distressed about the idea of Ozpin being dead. She doesn't believe it, and even seems to be very worried about the idea of it. Ozpin's death does not seem at all desirable to her right now, as far as this point in the story is concerned, and, as far as the Image Song is concerned, it's his suffering as opposed to his death that she seems more determined to obtain. It's like she views Ozpin as evil simply because he has hope for mankind's future, as if hope in a place like Remnant is somehow, for some reason, 'evil'.

The idea that hope can be a curse is an old storytelling and philosophical point that sometimes gets explored in various ways. Chris Nolan explored it in his version of the Batman films with Bane's story and actions, but it's certainly not limited to that. Divide could have been talking about Bane as far as that aspect is concerned. That's why I think the power of hope and despair are the key thing here. There's a reason Ruby has been built up as such a stubborn optimist, it's because she's the key to whether Salem or Ozpin win - the battle is about hope and despair and Ruby is right now the force for hope. Divide indicates that Salem knows it, too, and see's Ruby as the key to destroying Ozpin's hope.

The threat to Remnant's future and the future of humanity/faunus/whatever, lies with Ruby's optimism. It's not her death that matters, but whether she hopes or despairs. That's what Salem's speeches and Image Song says to me.

The fact that her Image Song is so obsessed with destroying Ozpin's hope makes me suspicious that the core of her hatred is about how she experienced a crushing loss of hope and was left with only despair to fill the hole that was left behind.

Ozpin comes across to me (and even the villain songs suggest this) as the person who's trapped by a certain way of thinking. It's not that he's not genuinely The Atoner, he is, but he can't think of the solution he needs; he's limited by the type of person he is, so someone else is going to need to be the one with the 'fresh' idea.

That's why I think Ruby is going to Take a Third Option. She won't do things Ironwood's way or Ozpin/Qrow's way. She'll find her own way, and that'll be the solution Remnant needs.

One thing I'm waiting for is Ozpin's song. I doubt we'll get it any time soon, but I'm sure there's a reason for the delay, and that's to make sure our vision of Ozpin is dictated by other people - doubters like Ironwood, loyalists like Glynda, and villains like Cinder or Salem (note that Qrow actually hasn't said much about Ozpin, which is why I've excluded him). That's because this is how the protagonists learn of Ozpin, too - through others, each providing their own biases, interpretations and contexts. Until we have his side of the story, we're definitely not going to be getting the full truth from Salem and her song, especially given that we've already seen indications that she hasn't been telling her subordinates the full truth (Cinder had no idea what she was getting into by stealing the Fall Maiden's powers; that much is obvious). She tells them just enough to make them useful to her plans; and I won't be surprised if that's what her Image Song is doing, too.

edited 18th Dec '16 6:29:22 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42961: Dec 18th 2016 at 6:33:15 PM

[up] I definitely think Ruby will be able to Take a Third Option in the end, but that being said, it seems pretty clear to me that Ozpin is also hiding a hell of a lot from his subordinates, probably as much if not more than what Salem is hiding from her minions. As far as the bias goes, I would assume an Image Song reflects the character's true feelings, so if "Divide" (and "Sacrifice", for that matter) goes on a tirade shaming Ozpin about throwing people to the wolves to forestall something (Salem's retribution?), that's probably at least close to what Ozpin is actually doing, though it's certainly possible that his motives aren't as selfish as Salem and Cinder seem to think.

I would personally suspect that Ozpin has rationalized the "sacrifices" he sends people to make on his own behalf as necessary; for the sake of his own sanity he has to convince himself that he's not just acting out of cowardice, and has to believe that all his transgressions have served a higher purpose.

My own wild mass guess is that, at some point in the future, when everything about Ozpin and Salem has been laid bare, Ruby being able to Take a Third Option between maintaining the cruel deception that Ozpin has crafted for another iteration of a Vicious Cycle and burning it to the ground will be due to him coming to the realization (probably helped along by Ruby) that, deep down, everything he's done has been a ploy to stave off the reaper just a few more years, rather than some grand, noble act of atonement/a Necessary Evil of sorts.

Which will be what finally motivates him to give up his life and his immortality, an act which proves essential to Ruby's ultimate triumph and the Earn Your Happy Ending conclusion I expect the show to come to.

Edit: In regards of Salem wanting Ozpin to suffer before he "burns" and her seemingly being distressed about him being "dead", I think it's more that he has a form of Resurrective Immortality (possibly via Body Surf if I'm right about what's happening to Oscar), which means Salem can't just walk into his office and obliterate him with mind lasers or something; he'll just come back to life. That he's content to play dead now indicates he's planning something, and Salem is worried because she doesn't know what that is, and still can't find the damn relic they tore Beacon to the ground to acquire.

Edit 2: Incidentally, both "Sacrifice" and "Divide" give me a Rage Against the Heavens vibe, particularly the former.

Edit 3: In fact, it's not just the villain songs calling out Ozpin; quite a few of the hero songs muse about whether everything they've been fighting for is a lie, whether they're just pawns in somebody else's game, and so on.

edited 19th Dec '16 9:49:45 AM by CaptainCapsase

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#42962: Dec 19th 2016 at 5:01:14 PM

[up]As far as I know, all of us think Ozpin is hiding an awful lot from his subordinates. An Image Song might reflect how someone truly feels, but that's not the same thing as reflecting the actual truth.

I'm not convinced Ozpin is immortal (which isn't the same thing as not having access to some kind of resurrective technique). Given his appearance, and some of the things the creators have said about his age, I just get the impression that he has an unnaturally long life for <insert speculation here> reasons; he's ageing, but much more slowly than normal.

We also don't know what the natural lifespan is in this setting. Given that the natural height seems to be significantly taller on average than in real life, I'm not going to assume the human lifespan is naturally the same. Aura might factor in here, Semblances even more so, and perhaps other factors. Then there's the Faunus. Whatever the natural lifespan may be, Ozpin and Salem are clearly far beyond on that, it's the 'how' that'll be interesting to find out. That doesn't guarantee either of them are immortal (or age-immortal, at any rate). I'm also waiting to find out of Ozpin is genuinely human, given that Salem's attitude, and even some of the songs, give the feeling that Ozpin is humanity's "guardian" (self-imposed or actual, remains to be seen) rather than a member of humanity itself.

I think some kind of Body Surf angle is what most people assume about Ozpin and Oscar.

edited 19th Dec '16 5:04:59 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#42963: Dec 19th 2016 at 5:22:52 PM

An Image Song might reflect how someone truly feels, but that's not the same thing as reflecting the actual truth.

Not what everyone believed about Jacques after hearing "It's My Turn." People were convinced he was an abusive dicklord.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#42967: Dec 19th 2016 at 7:44:14 PM

It's the song that plays at the start of Vol 3 during RWBY vs ABRN. Actually beat out "I May Fall" as my favorite RWBY song.

    yt 

edited 19th Dec '16 7:49:39 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#42968: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:04:54 PM

On that note, lets talk about favorite songs in RWBY.

Personally, my favorites are I Burn, Time to Say Goodbye, Divide, Die, When it Falls, Divide, Coffee, I'm the One, Divide.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#42969: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:08:11 PM

Divide is the best. Period.

There are plenty of other amazing songs, of course, but Divide is the best.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42970: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:08:54 PM

Did you put Divide three times on purpose?

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#42971: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:46:48 PM

It's so good I just had to divide it into the list three times.

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#42972: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:54:06 PM

Boo! bad pun! tongue

[DATA LOST]
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42973: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:47:21 PM

@Wyld: I'm not sure Ozpin has "ageless" immortality either, but if he can just Body Surf to somebody else every time he's killed or dies naturally, he's effectively immortal.

I'm also wondering whether the "Gods" that were invoked by the Ship Captain will come into this at some point, or if that's just background fluff. Perhaps it's because I was rereading His Dark Materials around the time volume 3 premiered, but if the series ends up Going Cosmic at some point (and given how the setting feels very "JRPG"-ish, that's quite possible*), I could definitely see the conflict taking on a Gnostic bent, with Ozpin serving a pantheon of cosmic entities ranging from fickle and callous to downright malevolent, less out of loyalty to their cause and more out of a lack of viable alternatives.

Salem in this scenario would be somewhat like an even more extreme twist on Lord Asriel, intent on casting down the celestial tyrants that lord over the world, regardless of the cost or the consequences.

*: Like seriously, the Abrahamic God or an expy thereof being the final boss of Japanese games is practically a cliche. Obviously a western work is unlikely to go there for fear of controversy, but a polytheistic pantheon, fictional or Otherwise is fair game.

edited 19th Dec '16 10:34:13 PM by CaptainCapsase

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#42974: Dec 19th 2016 at 10:37:09 PM

Caffeine is the best.

My various fanfics.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#42975: Dec 19th 2016 at 10:51:22 PM

Just a think Cap: Tyrian also call a Salem a goddess, take that as you will.

Im a villian lover so is not surprise I enjoy Divide,Sacrifice and Im the one.

on the good guys songs I like Red like Rose II, Boop, Mirror Mirro and Phyrra song(if only for harsher in hindsight aspect)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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