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TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#42926: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:15:43 AM

Nice WOR, here are some of my thoughts. :Skip if you hate spoilers and WMG

@SDC and Jacques:

  • Being a Jerkass father ties to Weiss and Snow White - he's the wicked King obsessed with wealth and his image as the Queen was obsessed with her vanity. And Weiss is a better person than him.
  • Jacques is an a-hole more than Raven - Raven has seen the face of the enemy and it broke her. She is just trying to save what she knows. Jacques only cares about his family and his balance sheet....
  • Jacques may not have a semblance, wouldn't surprise me if he was just some guy (perhaps a new rich "self made man") who married mommy Schinee for money.
    • Alternately he does have a semblance, but why be a huntsman when you can just be rich? Maybe that's how he got his money -saved enough to no longer work and then found his Meal Ticket was on the market.

@Salem and Team WTCH

  • "peace be upon you" and your plans - Salem moves in the Shadows and behind the scenes. Remember Remnant came out of a devastating war. Much like when the allies in World War Two included nations that would have fought each other, the kingdoms would have openly fought her it they knew of her. Instead she played the long game- the kingdoms at large forget about her. She offers power to a select few and lulls the rest into "not my problem".
    • Result? The White Fang and the kingdoms are at each other's throats and her group gets to move around at will. Everyone is at daggers drawn and the few who do know aren't in a position to be believed.
  • Salem's work with the White Fang makes a ton of sense. They can take the fight to Atlas and the Grimm can't. It's not their army - Cinder haxxored it in Vol 2 &3. It's the cold. The Fang can cause a Fanus uprising and screw with SDC mines/operations in other kingdoms. Just when the other kingdoms need dust, not only does Ironwood cut them off, but I suspect that Salem (and Cinder) were trying to get the Fang to bring the war home for SDC when the time was right (after the other kingdoms would be in disarray.

edited 18th Dec '16 11:36:28 AM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42927: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:16:58 AM

Considering other character's names foreshadow their role in the story via the stories being alluded to, Salem's name (and Ozpin's) are two of the big reasons I'm expecting some sort of twist to the overarching conflict.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42928: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:28:51 AM

Is that clear? I doubt most of her human associates would be on board for that, and it definitely sounds like the attack on Beacon was done in pursuit of something other than destruction.

Well, considering how she's going on about snuffing all hope out, and lyrics from her personal song to Ozpin, which many people use as evidence of "Ozpin is really the bad guy!" has her saying lines like "All that you've built will be torn down" and "Slaughter is coming, the end drawing near", yes, I think it's pretty clear.

Again, they don't have to know what she's actually planning, and I'm not sure why you'd assume they really do.

Also, again, Ozpin having done terrible thing in the past, or otherwise not being entirely on the up and up, doesn't mean that Salem isn't really as evil as she seems.

This story frankly doesn't strike me as that complex, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

edited 18th Dec '16 11:31:58 AM by LSBK

BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#42929: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:41:32 AM

Yeah, even if Ozpin is (somehow) a bad guy, that doesn't make Salem the good one. She's Obviously Evil in a series that's pretty clear cut with that.

Evil Versus Evil would be more likely. Though Ozpin's comments REEK of The Atoner.

edited 18th Dec '16 11:41:53 AM by BlackSunNocturne

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42930: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:50:31 AM

[up][up] I mean "slaughter is coming" is perfectly compatible with a Utopia Justifies the Means villain, and if my own pet theory about Salem being the only surviving member of a Precursor race whose destruction was somehow Ozpin's fault, that's the makings of a surprisingly pitiful villain (in the Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds sense) even if the morality of the conflict is pretty much black and white.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:37:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#42931: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:50:33 AM

In Babylon Five - Earth sided with the Big Bad due to not wanting to be spaded under in the coming war. The humans working with them admit "we can be the first to rebuild after the war''. In Deep Space Nine Gul Dukat allies with that Big Bad due to his pride and two forces (one Klingons, the other Maqui terrorists) wiping the floor with his military.

Both Baddies promise that their lackies can "lick the spoon" as it were when the plans come to fruition.

Team WTCH sees power and that Salem does have a lot of it:

  • Cinder got the fall maiden's power

  • Doctor Watts maybe from Atlas or Vacuo and is either in it For Science! or for the power to lead after Salem's done picking her teeth with several kingdoms.

  • Ditto Hazel wild mass guessHe's another fanus (it's the eyes that sell me) and he gets some kind of reward.

  • Tyrian just loves him some killin'. He was either kicked out of the White Fang for being a psycho or Adam isn't brutal enough for him.

Now of course things backfire (Cinder's weakness is a biggie) but then again villains don't expect you to read the fine print.

But why go about this plan and not just crank out a ton 'o Grimm until team RWBY is up to their eyeballs in critters?

[up][awesome] Either Salem is a precursor or a tainted hunter who has harnessed the Grimm and she wants revenge. I suspect that wild mass guess Ozpin and Salem were on the same side only Salem got corrupted.

But Salem being one of the "first ones" (placeholder until we get more info) with an axe to grind? I can see that too.

edited 18th Dec '16 11:54:37 AM by TairaMai

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42932: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:53:06 AM

My take on Ozpin is that he's the Big Good to Salem's Big Bad. He's her counterpart in some way, one which likely has to do with the origin of the grimm. What exactly that means in concrete terms isn't clear yet, but that's the impression I have of the whole situation at this point.

Of course, I only say that at this point because of the shenanigans going on with the farmboy. Ask me at the beginning of season four, and I'd have said that he was most likely just an usually well-informed master huntsman.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42933: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:55:23 AM

[up][up] Vengeful Precursor also sounds fairly similar to the villain of Halo 4, and we all know Rooster Teeth loves Halo.

But yeah, thus far pretty much every character seems to have a Meaningful Name, and when the Big Good is named after a Charlatan and a Usurper and the Big Bad after a town in which a bunch of innocent people were executed because of paranoia and religious zealotry (which itself is named for the Hebrew word for "peace"), you have to start asking these questions.

edited 18th Dec '16 11:58:07 AM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42934: Dec 18th 2016 at 11:58:36 AM

[up][up][up][up]The thing about that is, there's a lot backing up the "kill a bunch of people" part and nothing for the "build a Utopia afterwards" part. Pet theories are fine, but they should be tempered with what's actually been shown implied.

All that we know is that she has some animosity towards Ozpin. For all we know it could turn out to be completely unjustified on her part, at least concerning what she's actually upset about, and not whether he actually did anything wrong.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:00:27 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42935: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:00:03 PM

[up] There's some stuff backing up the second part (or at least backing up the notion that's what Salem is telling her henchmen), at least if we assume "Sacrifice" is Cinder's Image Song. Even Divide has shades of that in terms of Salem shaming Ozpin for sending people to die in his place.

As far as "obscure" refernces go, there's a whole bunch of obscure references in terms of names.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:02:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42936: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:02:00 PM

Yes, because BigBads never lie to their minions and tell them it's all for a greater good. Considering how Cinder recruited Mercury and Emerald, preying on their desperation and hopes, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Salem did the same thing to her.

Yeah, Salem is shaming him...for fighting what she views as inevitable.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:03:13 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42937: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:03:13 PM

[up] That's entirely possible, though I think it could go either way at this point; maybe Salem's claiming it's all for the greater good when she's really just interested in repaying Ozpin in kind for destroying her people, if we go by my own Precursor theory.

As far as "Divide" goes, I'll have to listen again, though I got the impression the shaming was directed at Ozpin for throwing away people's lives to forestall his inevitable demise and the destruction of the charade of a world order he built.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:05:27 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42938: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:04:51 PM

[up]Yes, it could, I just think your doing a little fiddling to make it 50/50 chance instead of say, 80/20.

Which is pretty common with fan theories, and it's annoying, which is why I might seem a bit overly confrontational.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#42939: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:06:53 PM

[up] It's somewhat difficult to "price" these kinds of WMGs; I'm personally seeing a lot of flags that indicate to me that neither the top villains nor the top heroes are what they seem from a cursory glance.

What exactly that means isn't really clear, though I'd say it's quite likely Salem at least is claiming to be acting for the greater good to win the loyalty of her subordinates, and it's also possible her actual goal is genuinely noble, though if that's the case I'd strongly suspect she's also concealing a rather unpleasant catch, ie The Evils of Free Will or an Assimilation Plot from her subordinates.

If the writers do go down this kind of route, I would see our heroes finding a way to Take a Third Option and save the world without the horrific price either sides' methods demand, presumably having to defeat both Ozpin and Salem in the process. Talking the Monster to Death would be far more likely for the former, perhaps guilting him into finally accepting responsibility for his own actions rather than sending others to die so he doesn't have to face his own mistakes.

edited 18th Dec '16 12:17:35 PM by CaptainCapsase

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#42940: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:08:06 PM

[up] We only see bits of the plan, I expect to see more later. As it stands, WTCH doesn't seem to benefit from a world crawling with Grimm. I suspect that they either want Atlas (where Grimm can't go) or they plan on rebuilding after Salem has wrecked the place.

@CaptainCapsase: good call, also The Fair Folk take revenge is a faletale theme.

I tried to walk like an Egyptian and now I need to see a Cairo practor....
powerpuffbats The crabby fussbudget Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The crabby fussbudget
#42941: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:24:41 PM

I think Ozpin is someone who is atoning for a horrible past deed.

In fiction in general, a decent amount of characters who are on the side of the heroes tend to be atoners.

AAAAUUUUGGGHHHH!!!!
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42942: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:30:15 PM

Considering how Cinder recruited Mercury and Emerald, preying on their desperation and hopes, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Salem did the same thing to her.
Does she actually tell them that she's going to make the world a better place or anything like that? I don't recall that being part of the conversation. Mercury joined Cinder after killing his own father (who was Cinder's initial target for recruitment), and he's basically a psychopath, rarely displaying any sort of regret or remorse for hurting others and basically seeming to be happy being on the "winning team" and not giving a damn about anything else. Emerald joined up with Cinder as a way to escape poverty; she was living as a thief and struggling to survive until Cinder recruited her, and Emerald has actually shown some emotion at the stuff she's done since then (most notably, after the fall of Beacon), but seems to consider herself in too deep to back out now. (And, to be fair, she's probably right.)

I'm actually hoping that Emerald pulls a Heel–Face Turn at some point. Given everything she's seen, I don't think it would take much of a push to send her running to the good guys if she thought she could defect without getting killed.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42943: Dec 18th 2016 at 12:44:39 PM

[up]They both have had hard lives and are doing this as a way to escape them. Cinder has made comments that imply she's the same.

I don't actually see Emerald leaving without Cinder; she seems attached to her.

edited 18th Dec '16 1:28:55 PM by LSBK

IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Love, football, the arts, the occasional pint
#42944: Dec 18th 2016 at 1:21:07 PM

Yeah, I can see Emerald turning if she thinks she can save Cinder or bring her along, but I don't think the girl whose background is being alone and unloved is going to abandon the first person to ever really acknowledge her.

Does anyone actually read these?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42945: Dec 18th 2016 at 1:22:02 PM

I can't really agree. Mercury had a hard life, certainly, but he'd just finished killing his dad (the source of most of his problems) when Cinder recruited him — he had plenty of options besides joining Cinder at that point, and still does. He seems to have joined her because it means he gets to kill a bunch of people and lets him live in relative comfort for little effort otherwise. He'd probably be just as happy doing something like Roman did, being a strongman for hire (though Roman seemed to be more intellectual than Mercury is; Roman's the guy you hire to plan and execute a heist, Mercury would just be a thug or an assassin providing muscle). Emerald is the only one who really fits the "rescued from a bad situation they couldn't have gotten out of otherwise" mold, and she's definitely aware of the moral tradeoff she's making in doing so. Even if she's not to the point of actively regretting her decision, it's something she's thinking about, at least. And while I agree that Emerald does seem to bear some fondness for Cinder, it appears to be mostly because Cinder's the one who lifted her out of poverty; if it becomes clear that Cinder is a psychopath that's trying to burn down the world for whatever reason, I think Emerald would jump ship if she was able.

Cinder's backstory we've got next to nothing on. She may see herself as a sympathetic figure — some sort of "paying back the world for what it did to me" sort of thing — but until we have some details I'm not going to hold my breath that she's anything but evil with a capital E.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42946: Dec 18th 2016 at 1:26:47 PM

That's fair. I get the impression that Cinder's speech about the Kingdoms and the men who run it were her actual opinions though. And she's apparently from Mistral which is known for its...shadiness, apparently. Doesn't mean she isn't still evil, though.

But for Mercury, going, by the lyrics of "I'm the One", I think he might fit the mold of "Paying the world back for what it did to me." more than Cinder, but that's just a guess.

edited 18th Dec '16 1:27:11 PM by LSBK

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#42947: Dec 18th 2016 at 1:32:30 PM

'if it becomes clear that Cinder is a psychopath that's trying to burn down the world for whatever reason, I think Emerald would jump ship if she was able.'

I cant help but feel that If this was the case.She would have jumped ship back when Beacon fell.Cinder clearly showed her psychopathic traits there.And yet she sticks with her.

edited 18th Dec '16 1:43:46 PM by DeanCole

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42948: Dec 18th 2016 at 1:36:41 PM

Also, I feel the need to make a distinction between a character changing sides or not really being evil and the show portraying that accurately.

Like we've already said, it's likely going to go that route with Raven, but that doesn't mean they're going to do a good job making her actually sympathetic.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#42949: Dec 18th 2016 at 3:42:30 PM

[up][up]We don't really know enough to say. She may be believe that the Kingdoms are all assholes and deserve to be punished, but started having second thoughts when she actually saw said "punishment" in action. She may have not really cared before, but is starting to after seeing Beacon fall. She may be actively looking for an opportunity to get out, but can't when she's stuck in Salem's evil castle. She may want to leave, but hasn't because she thinks they'll hunt her down if she runs. We just don't really know.

What I think is pretty clear, at least, is that the fall of Beacon at least raised questions in Emerald's mind. My impression is that this is the first time she's thinking about the bigger picture rather than just her own personal situation, and she probably needs another push before she'll actual decide that she wants out — and by then, she might not be able to.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#42950: Dec 18th 2016 at 3:48:21 PM

Note that while Mercury was gleeful at the fall of Beacon (and Emerald wasn't), Mercury was clearly just as horrified as Emerald watching Grimm crawl out of the blood pits outside Salem's castle. There was a strong feeling of "Oh shit what did we get ourselves into" in that scene.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.

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