Yes, and those two episodes have given us a lot of interplay with Ren, Jaune, and Nora. They're up to their usual standard of entertainment. Even Jaune manages to be interesting by virtue of not getting spontaneously shat on as much, so he actually gets to breathe as a character and not just be comedic relief.
We even got to see Jaune not only develop as a character but also reclaim his role as tactician for Team JNPR without having it overshadowed by "LOL Jaune sucks at life" comedic relief.
Ren even emotes!
Ruby, however, has just felt out of place. When we were waiting for season 4, I mentioned that I would be livid if Jaune even tried to compete with Ruby for team leadership. Because I hated him. But since the season's opened, not only has Jaune felt more like a leader than Ruby without even having to try, but it actually feels right.
Ruby comes off like a piece that doesn't fit. She's out of place. It's awkward seeing her and Team JNPR try to act like she totally organically belongs here when, instead, she just feels like she's suffocating with them. Most of her dialogue is just generic Hero stuff and what isn't has more to do with fleshing out the other characters' identities than establishing her own.
Season 4 Ruby ultimately just feels generic. It's hard to escape the feeling like she's only here because she's supposed to be the hero and is thus obligated to defeat the monsters and save the day and stuff - a feeling accentuated when even Team JNPR isn't sure what they're doing. During the conversation about team names, Ren explains their mission statement as, "We're helping Ruby."
That's it. That's their purpose here. They're on their way to Mistral because there's Hero Work to be done and Ruby is the Hero and thus obligated to do it, and they're just backing her up. And yet she's the piece that doesn't fit. Ultimately, nothing about this setup feels natural and it's in large part because Ruby ran off to be the Hero of the story so fast at the end of season 3 that she forgot to develop naturally as a character.
Before, she wanted to become a Huntress. With Beacon gone, though, she doesn't seem to want anything anymore. She's just heroically reacting to stuff. There's evil that must be thwarted so she's gonna be there and do it. She doesn't have any goals or desires or relationships anymore. She's just fighting evil and being the hero because there's evil afoot and it needs a hero to fight it.
edited 4th Nov '16 12:44:11 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Honestly, Jumped at the Call is perfectly within her established character. They really do need to look more deeply into the motivations behind it, the relationships and the emotions involved and so on. There's still 9 episodes left in the volume to do just that.
edited 4th Nov '16 12:54:36 PM by CaptainCapsase
The MC is the least interesting character? Cannot be surprising, no?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I can't help but thinking you're jumping the gun about Tobias, though I get the point about Ruby not really fitting right with what's left of team JNPR.
Still though, I've mentioned before how neither she nor Jaune came off as leaders for the most part, and I'm hoping that changes. Though, it doesn't even seem like they're sure who is leading the team now.
There is al the fact that her leaving was after her talk with qrow who mentioned the role of people with silver eyes along their legend. Combine that with pieces from her conversations wiry ozpin and yeah she would obviously jump at the chance to help people and throw herself right into the thick of things. Which is probably the very reason her father probably wanted to be in the room to probably prevent qrow from putting ideas into her head.
"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - DorthyI don't quite agree with Tobias that Ruby suddenly feels like a cardboard cutout labelled "hero", but only because she's always felt a little bit that way to me. Seriously, why is Ruby the main character? Why is she the leader of Team RWBY? Why is RWBY about her? She's an entertaining enough character, but she's always felt more like a supporting character than a protagonist. She's the endlessly upbeat friend who's always there to cheer her friends up whether they want to be or not, and willing to throw herself into whatever situation she has to in order to support her friends.
What she's always lacked is a clear motivation. Weiss is driven to prove herself to her family. Blake has her history with White Fang driving her. Yang has issues with her mother. Ruby's just sort of... there.
From a Doylist perspective, it's clear by now that what makes Ruby unique is her silver eyes. But that's pretty damn boring. Ruby didn't earn them, isn't motivated by them — she was just born with them. So she falls flat as The Hero even though that's clearly what the story is pushing her as.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.The show's always had a focus issue with its heroine. The Volume 3 finale is very blatant in how it's trying to remind the audience that Ruby is supposed to be the lead character.
They should just make Jaune the protagonist at this point; he's better developed and has actual stakes in the conflict. Weiss and Blake would also make much better protag material.
edited 4th Nov '16 1:53:50 PM by Karxrida
Jaune's problem is that he has plenty of potential for development, they just haven't done any of it yet. That was the biggest thing that annoyed me about Pyrrha's death. They spent all this time building up their relationship, and it was leading to a lot of good development for both of them — Jaune was helping Pyrrha get over her Lonely at the Top issues, while Pyrrha was helping Jaune not suck anymore. And then Pyrrha died (stupidly, to add insult to injury) and the whole thing ended up as a giant waste of time.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.Eh, I don't want Jaune to be the lead protagonist either. I think his showing in season 4 thus far is a remarkable improvement over previous seasons, but I don't get "Main Character" from him.
I don't think the show should have a main character, to be honest. This feels like a story that would do really well as an Ensemble Cast. There's enough plot threads to go around and enough potential in a lot of characters to do some really interesting storytelling, but it feels held back by trying too hard to be about The Hero and her battle against the Sinister Villains she must defeat.
edited 4th Nov '16 1:57:30 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I think complaining that Ruby doesn't have any inner turmoil or goal driving her is kind of missing the point. There were two episode devoted to the other three members of the team struggling with why they choice to become a huntress and what they want to do, and we didn't get any of that with Ruby because she knows exactly why that is for her: she's doing it because it's what she wants more than anything, and it's what she wants more than anything because she genuinely wants to help as many people as she can.
She's a pure character. I understand feeling that might be a little static and stale to stick with, but that just means they need to put some adversity and test her resolve, not completely redo who she is.
Does she also need to go through a depression arc?
Or just need her views challenged? Darkly.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Time to pop out of lurking and blow your collective minds.
While I personally have not seen any of the Season 4 episodes yet, I've seen enough Japanese storytelling, in conjunction with your posts, to know what's going on. And yes, I specifically meant Japanese storytelling...because RWBY is exceptionally Japanese.
Or to be precise, we can look at the three qualities of Japanese Spirit: A natural gift or talent, an unshakeable resolve, and unstoppable determination. Obviously, Ruby Rose possesses all of those in abundance, making her a paragon of this and thus worthy of being a true hero. In comparison, Pyrrha was lacking. Is it any wonder she was doomed to fail from the beginning? With her initial lack of resolve and the maiden's power being artificially implanted, she was never the real hero.
However, Japanese stories tend to take this a step farther. The Hero as a pure avatar of Japanese Spirit is singular in the absolute; every other character is shown to be incapable of winning the central conflict. They can help, but it all comes down to the one hero at the end. So let's see...Pyrrha died, and Ozpin is presumed dead. Jaune, Ren, and Nora cannot move on from Pyrrha's death without Ruby to help them bring some closure. And with Ruby in a coma, the team she led completely fell apart, and much of the advertising and theories I've seen played this season up as Yang, Weiss, and Blake getting over their personal issues...so they could fall right back in line behind Ruby again. It all comes down to Ruby.
There is nothing new here; it's actually surprising to me that none of you caught on to the sheer weight of Japanese influence on RWBY. (I could spend a page-long post listing works where it shows up.) It isn't (at least for now) trying to be anything else. Whether you like it or not depends on your tolerance for those tropes, those storytelling patterns. And there are clear flaws and problems with them that I've noticed...so is it any wonder why I was (and still am) not a fan of the series?
<wanders off into the sunset, his point made>
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)![]()
For starters, she needs to start having views.
Ruby's motivation is that she wants to help people but that's a child's answer. There's a million ways to help people. That's not a reason to be a Huntress. She could be a doctor, a farmer, an inventor of groundbreaking technologies. There's tons of things she could be doing right now that fall under the umbrella of "helping people". Why, specifically, does her desire to help people manifest in the form of dedicating her life to hunting and killing Grimm?
The closest we have to an answer for that is because she reveres Qrow and it's what he does. She's doing what Uncle Qrow taught her to do. Even if he didn't do it intentionally, she's on a road that he determined for her, not one she chose for herself.
She doesn't have opinions on things. Have you noticed that? Like, Atlas builds these big murder bots and a secret human spy android, they strictly control what their spy android can do, they build combat modes into their spy android, and her position on the spy android is, "Penny's my friend." That's it. That is the sum of her entire stance on Atlas's secret spy android project.
She has excitement and generically good impulses, but she just flows with whatever happens around her. She needs to start not liking things. She needs to be actually bothered by things that happen to her for more than three seconds. She needs doubts. Flaws. Moments of indecision. Fears, desires, hopes, dreams.
She needs to want something; to have something to strive for other than the incredibly vague goal of "Helping". And she needs to start making efforts of her own initiative to reach for those wants and not just let others guide her path. Like, another example, when Harry Potter is told he can't do a thing, he goes behind people's backs to do it because of his wants and desires. When Ruby's told she can't go on the mission outside the city, Ozpin comes along and is like, "Nah, you're in," and she's just like, "Cool." No effort on her part; she's just moved to where she needs to be by other characters.
She doesn't even really have a stated reason to be opposing Cinder. She's just doing it 'cause she's supposed to. Because they're bad and she's good. Only reason she's on her way to Mistral now is because Qrow hinted that the plot is going there next so she packed up and headed out to fulfill her role.
In short, she needs to grow up a little and she needs to take control of her own narrative.
edited 4th Nov '16 3:19:37 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
I mean, I don't disagree with the growing up thing, but I'm not really sure why she needs more of a reason than she already has to be a huntress.
If you want an answer to that specific avenue than wanting to be like Qrow and her parents, and also the heroes in the story books, is the answer to that.
I'm not really sure why her using people she respects to lead her to an outlet for her genuine desire to help people is supposed to be bad.
Because it makes her passive, basically. Wanting to earn a pat on the head and a thumbs up from Uncle Qrow isn't a bad motivation for the start of her journey, but at some point she needs to let that fall by the wayside and define a motivation for continuing on it that's all hers. Because this isn't Qrow's story. She's not a satellite revolving around him. She's the main character. It's supposed to be about her.
The Fall of Vale was a golden opportunity for Ruby to find something that makes this journey hers. To build an enmity with the villain or to discover something about herself that she never knew or something. Whatever pushes her from "wanting to be like Qrow" to "genuinely opposing Cinder and her machinations on her own merits". We got that on a mechanical level with her Silver Eye powers, but not on a character one.
edited 4th Nov '16 3:26:20 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
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What is point of healing wounds when some creature can just tear someone apart in an instant? Why grow something when it can be trampled down by monster? If something is built, can it be easily be broken? Most people are basically locked away from the fear of being killed by some monster out there, and only thing keeping those folks save are hunters.
To be honest, these kinds of discussions are things what I have hard time taking part in. Because everyone has a role in a story, and it is up for them to fulfil that role. Ruby is the heroine of the story, at least the anchor character. And she fulfils that role. She might be a Vanilla Protagonist, but I have no problems with them.
edited 4th Nov '16 3:26:34 PM by TPPR10
Only sometimes postsWhy bother killing the monsters if everyone's so busy fighting them that nobody can heal injuries or grow food or build a shelter? A warrior is not the ultimate responsibility of a civilization. That expectation leads straight into feudalistic corruption and oppression of the masses. If everyone was a soldier and no one was a farmer, there wouldn't be a civilization left to defend. Everyone would be dead of hunger.
Every piece plays a role. The doctor, the farmer, the soldier, and countless other roles. They all contribute in equal measure and everything they do helps people. The simple desire to help does not, in and of itself, automatically lead to any of them.
edited 4th Nov '16 3:30:15 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Is it that bad to have a main character unpeturbed by dark secrets, inner turmoil and what have you?
Like, this discussion had me think of Jonathan who is also just about the purest boy-scout there is. He's not a new character, but his introduction in the recent anime felt fresh because the stories are IMO oversaturated with brooding dark anti-heroes.
The point of Ruby is that she's pure and innocent. Some of the innocence was lost with the fall of Beacon and P-Girls' death, but she didn't let it get to her, packed her stuff up and got her homies to set out to Mistral. We've had - and are likely to have - Blake's inner turmoil, we have Weiss' family issues and we're bound to have Yang's PTSD. That's also without mentioning Jaune's issues or Renora's village thing.
Every role has a part on keeping everything together. It is just that the warrior's role is to prevent some random outsider or insider to being like "You know what? Fuck your system, I am going to demolish it".
There is also that she is not restricted to just helping certain people. She is not here to help town X or help just one person. She can help people in need, no matter where the cry for help comes from.
Only sometimes postsproblem is that logic does not include unknowns like the nature of slilver eyes. How qrow seemed to describe that by their very nature they are supposed to lead the charge and probably die on the battlefield . Then there is the simple soul which both Salem and ozpin talk about. Which we don't know if that is related to silver eyes or something else unrelated.
She is obviously not going to have a clear opinion on secret atlas robots because the only one she knows is penny the one she befriended. She did acknowledge the importance of the ships when fighting Roman though. She definitely was hit hard when penny was broken and as of volume 4 she is having nightmares and guilt in regards to her failure to save phyra. She even noticed how said death was effecting jaunce.
"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy

Ruby's a first-year student from Beacon. There's really no reason for her to believe she is any more qualified or capable than the countless adult Hunters and Huntresses out there, up to and including Qrow - the person who told her that the enemy's in Haven in the first place. She has a neat power, but that doesn't make her Superman.
And my point isn't that she's deliberately dumping Yang and running. It's that she was written in such a way as to politely excuse her from Yang's drama by declaring, "I'm the Hero and I'm going to go deal with the Bad Guys because reasons!" and not examining her motives or role any further than that.
In essence, she's got the same issue in season 4 so far that Jaune had in seasons 2 and 3: her role is overtaking her character. She's acting like The Hero rather than like a person, up to and including abandoning her sister in her time of need because her Heroic Role requires her to be halfway across the world fighting evil in Haven.
edited 4th Nov '16 12:06:52 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.