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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40926: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:02:30 AM

Ambar: What makes you dislike them if I may ask?

Leaving aside the Hype Backlash, which was very much a thing, I'm a) not a big enough fan of magical girl shows to find a deconstruction of one that interesting and b) unwilling to accept the notion that True Art Is Incomprehensible.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#40927: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:08:37 AM

Where was the foreshadowing of the Silver eyes in previous volumes?

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40928: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:09:40 AM

Honestly people who keep calling PMMM a deconstruction of Magical Girl stuff are selling it short. Yes it does do that to some extent, but it's got far much more going on.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#40929: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:11:33 AM

[up][up]Ozpin's first words to Ruby, and the openings had focus on her eyes, the Volume 3 one especially.

Small amounts of foreshadowing, but still foreshadowing.

[up]It's because the Urobutcher wrote for PMMM.

edited 30th Oct '16 8:12:02 AM by BlackSunNocturne

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40930: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:17:59 AM

Just saw the second episode of Volume 4. First thought was, swear to God, "no farm kid this time"?

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#40931: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:36:44 AM

Considering his Hair style and eye color are very similar to Ozpin's, I have a feeling he'll be important by the volume's end.

Watch Symphogear
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40932: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:44:58 AM

Even if he is important they surely could have found a better use of time than several minutes of watching him do chores last time.

Regarding the rest of Episode 2, my thoughts so far are something's up with Weiss' brother, they better do something with the multiple personality having butler, and her dad is pretty much what I was expecting. As for Jaune...this better not be heading in a direction where her death has made him a better fighter.

By the way, somebody has added Weiss' interaction with her dad to the CMOH page. I'm not going to remove it because if any page is subjective, it's that one, but jeez people.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#40933: Oct 30th 2016 at 8:49:10 AM

wild mass guessThe farm boy is there to screw with all of uswild mass guess. That, or it leads to something not really relevant like Kick the Dog moment from the villains.

Only sometimes posts
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40934: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:00:20 AM

[up][up]Crowning Moment of Heartwarming? I could see an argument for that with her brother, but her dad?

And about Jaune being a better fighter, why wouldn't he be? It's been eight months of practice intermingled with actual fighting. There's no reason he shouldn't have gotten better in that time. I'm curious when he got that video but what's wrong with using it as motivation/training aid?

edited 30th Oct '16 9:02:42 AM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40935: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:10:52 AM

@Ambar: Jaune's been getting continually better since the start of the show, and while Pyrrha's death has undoubtedly put a wrench in his efforts to better himself given his mentor is now dead, I see no reason why it's unreasonable to expect him to continue to improve as time goes on, especially if he starts training with Ruby as I suspect may happen.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40936: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:23:23 AM

I have no issue with Jaune getting better. I just don't want it to be because of Pyrrha's death.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40937: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:32:42 AM

Well, I get that, but I don't think that's what that scene was implying.

mega-dark Moe Game Console from Planeptune Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Moe Game Console
#40938: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:33:58 AM

Incoming Papa and Brother Schnee hate incoming. Prepare the defense fleet! Oh wait, I'm the only one on it.

Hyped for Hyperdimension Neptunia V 2
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#40939: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:44:35 AM

[up][up][up]That isn't the only reason....good right?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#40940: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:57:48 AM

It's pretty much already been said, but regarding the MEH discussion: a previously established bad person smiling while doing bad things is shoehorning of the highest order. That's the kind of example that feels like it says more about the person who posted it than about the show in question.

Specifically, it says, "This is when the Leather Pants fell off." But that's not what MEH means.

Regarding Jaune

I've only seen the first episode of season 2 thus far but I really liked Jaune in this episode. His plan - "Hit it harder" - may have been pretty simple but his reasoning and what the plan meant was well thought out. We get to see him be the tactician and we get to see the team rely on his tactical input, and it all comes together. Best of all, it doesn't feel like he's improved because of Pyrrha, but that he's finally living up to the character he was in the premiere.

Even the obligatory "Jaune fails at life" slapstick didn't feel like it was actually undermining his contribution to the team. This was a good episode for Jaune and gave me confidence in where RT is planning to take him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#40941: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:36:03 AM

The Silver Eyes weren't a Deus ex Machina. A Deus ex Machina requires no foreshadowing or hinting prior to it.
From to trope page itself: "A Deus ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way. It's often used as the solution to what is called "writing yourself into a corner," where the problem is so extreme that nothing in the established setting suggests that there is a logical way for the characters to escape."

Was the silver eyes thing a new ability? Yes. Did it solve a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way? Yes. Was it used to resolve the plot writing itself into a corner with a problem so extreme that nothing previously established suggested that there was a logical way for the protagonists to win? Yes.

So yeah, I'm going to call that a Deus ex Machina. That doesn't mean you have to dislike it, but I don't think you can legitimately claim that it wasn't one.

and the situation wasn't hopeless or unsolvable
Cinder had shown herself to be capable of beating basically anything that the heroes could throw at her, and that was before she absorbed the rest of Autumn's power. Now she's even stronger than "can beat everyone", the grimm dragon was on the rampage, and there was no credible threat to either left. That's pretty damn hopelessly unsolvable, as far as narrative situations go.

Yang hasn't been Put on a Bus. She's getting her own arc in Volume 4 because it seems that V4 is going to be bouncing around between each member of Team RWBY to see what they're up to.
Well, that's good, at least. The epilogue of season three suggested that they were putting her on the sidelines because of her injury.

You say that the heroes couldn't beat the villains without a "Deus ex Machina", but Cinder's plan failed aside from her getting the Maiden powers. Destroy Vale? Failed. Kill everyone? Failed.
Failed because of the Deus ex Machina I'm complaining about. Without Ruby pulling silver eye powers out of her ass, they wouldn't have been able to stop Cinder or the dragon, so the plan would have been 100% successful. Even with the silver eyes, the plan was still about 90% successful, as they were able to 1) make Beacon look like bastards on a global broadcast, 2) take down long-range communications worldwide, 3) get the rest of the maiden's power, and 4) render Beacon uninhabitable, since it's infested with grimm to the point where there's no viable plan for retaking it, even if it hasn't been actually physically destroyed. Silver-eye powers kept it from being a flawless victory for Cinder & co, but certainly didn't keep it from being a win for them.

Four: Your complaint about FMA has the same massive flaw: That's not a Deus ex Machina.
You're right — that example is a Diabolus ex Machina instead, since it's a bad thing happening instead of a good one. But it fills the same criteria — something comes completely out of left field and radically changes the course of the plot, which is immensely unsatisfying because it feels like the author is jerking the audience around rather than feeling like a reasonable development of the story based on what we know of it so far.

Where was the foreshadowing of the Silver eyes in previous volumes?
The first time Ruby meets Ozpin, he calls attention to the color of her eyes, but doesn't say anything else about it. Here's the scene. That's literally it, as far as I'm aware, which is why I don't really consider it foreshadowing for crazy grimm-slaying powers.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:37:34 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40942: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:37:50 AM

[up][up]Thank you. And yeah, it definitely comes off as more of a "leather pants falling off" moment. That's a good way to put it.

Having gone to the YMMV page it appears that, despite one of the tropers involved having sent me a PM threatening to put it back up and demanding I be okay with it, that "MEH" for Neo has not, in fact, been readded. I found the spot on the Discussion page where the two of them were talking about it though, and left a message informing them of the general consensus in the thread and suggesting they bring it here if they want to talk about it any farther.

Thank you everyone for your cooperation. We may now return to making jokes about Adam the edgelord and Jaune and/or Blake being useless.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:38:03 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40943: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:41:05 AM

Wait, I'm confused, you're calling it a Deus ex Machina even though you admit it didn't fix most things in the situation and the villains plans are still going strong? Ruby's powers just gave a momentary reprieve, not a magical cure all to the situation like the term implies.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:43:03 AM by LSBK

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40944: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:41:59 AM

New post as I return to discussing things other people in the thread care about, as opposed to dealing with wiki stuff.

I'm inclined to agree with Jovian about the Silver Eyes thing being a Deus ex Machina. Unlike him, I don't mind it, and I think it worked out alright, but it doesn't change the fact that Cinder's plan was only damaged because of Ruby manifesting a new ability, rather than anything she actually did, and I can see why that frustrates him.

Some people don't like it when a character succeeds by sheer luck rather than actual talent, and the sudden activation of an at best poorly foreshadowed ability with zero build up, is more or less the definition of succeeding by sheer luck. I don't mind it—but I get why Jovian does.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40945: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:43:43 AM

@Jovian: Actually it's an example of Chekhov's Gun; a situation where a previously insignificant detail becomes significant, and either way, this is something that happened early on in the overall plot of the series, so it's not nearly as much of an issue of this sort of thing happening near the end.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:44:59 AM by CaptainCapsase

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40946: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:44:56 AM

Honestly I think Ruby could have taken Cinder (if not the dragon) without the Silver Eyes. Her fight with Pyhhra was a close one and I can't imagine her having much Aura at that point.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40947: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:45:30 AM

[up] If Pyrrha wasn't dead maybe her+Ruby could take Cinder, but no way would Ruby be able to win by herself.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40948: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:46:08 AM

Cinder didn't seem particularly exhausted or winded and I don't see Ruby actually being as skilled as Pyrrha.

Edit: And I still don't get calling that battle "close". Just because Pyrrha put up a good fight and it wasn't completely one-sided doesn't mean Pyrrha ever had a chance of winning.

edited 30th Oct '16 10:47:15 AM by LSBK

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40949: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:47:46 AM

True. I guess I misremembered what state Cinder was in.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40950: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:50:17 AM

[up][up]Seconded. Pyrrha probably would have stood a good chance of making a getaway no worse for the wear, but taking on Cinder was never gonna end well for her.


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