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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40851: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:23:39 PM

I'm pretty sure it would. At the very least, it would seem off to me for that to just be a thing they bring up later for some big, dark reveal.

And something I'm noticed, is that a lot of people just seem to take Salem and her theme song Divide, at face value. She certainly thinks she's been wronged, but a villain thinking something like that, and it actually being true are often not one in the same. Regardless of any number of mistakes Ozpin admits to making.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40852: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:27:04 PM

[up] I'm aware of that, but RWBY has been unusually tight to the chest about the forces opposing our heroes, and has dropped enough cues that hint at a deeper story that I'm inclined to suspect Ozpin actually did inflict some horrible wrong on Salem in the distant past, or in my version, her people, by way of committing a near complete genocide. Thousands of years later, the sole survivor of his greatest mistake has resurfaced, and intends to return the favor.

edited 29th Oct '16 3:29:29 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#40853: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:27:50 PM

Maybe a maiden can hear the Grimm and speak to them. There is also the idea Cinder is part Grimm herself.

Just Makima.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40854: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:29:26 PM

I'm not saying he's entirely innocent in all of this, I figure that's basically impossible. Just that going "Wow, everything is Ozpin's fault, you can't really blame Salem for wanting to wipeout all of humanity" makes no sense.

edited 29th Oct '16 3:29:49 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40855: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:32:20 PM

[up] That's not what I'm saying, and I'm really not even sure that is her ultimate goal; it doesn't really make sense that she'd have a cadre of human supporters who don't even seem especially terrified of her if that were the case. I'd actually be inclined towards some sort of Utopia Justifies the Means plan involving taking over the world.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40856: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:33:37 PM

The common reasoning seems to be she's not telling them everything.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40857: Oct 29th 2016 at 3:35:54 PM

[up] Well yeah, obviously (or at least probably), though I wouldn't be surprised if the asterisk she's left out is that the end phase of her plan involves an Assimilation Plot or The Evils of Free Will or something of that sort as opposed to killing everyone.

I could even see Salem and co getting close to Well-Intentioned Extremist territory, depending on how awful Ozpin's past misdeeds were. Suppose for example that his oft speculated about immortality (which, if farmboy is indeed his new incarnation would be some sort of Body Surf deal) was achieved at a truly horrific cost along the lines of the Nameless One from Planescape Torment. Horrific on the scale of committing genocide against Salem's people (if we go with the Last of Her Kind theory) and accidentally unleashing the Grimm upon the world in the process. He got his immortality and then some in the end, and for the dozens of lifetimes (stolen from innocents because his immortality is of the Body Surf variety) his lived since then he's done all he can to mitigate the damage of his actions.

There are some things which just can't be forgiven, not even in a thousand lifetimes of good behavior, and Salem intends to bring Ozpin to justice no matter the cost...Even if that cost is killing anyone who he could possibly Body Surf to and leaving the world in ruins.

Edit: A random thought regarding the white fang's leader; is Khan a surname or a title?

Edit: Second tangent, I re-watched episode 1, and at the end of the farmboy scene I thought I heard footsteps, and indeed it looks like he's looking at something/someone interesting.

edited 29th Oct '16 5:47:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#40858: Oct 29th 2016 at 6:35:45 PM

I mean it could be both like in real life tongue

I'm doubting they'll by using Khan as a title without the historical basis behind it in Remnant.

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#40859: Oct 29th 2016 at 6:56:52 PM

Rooster Teeth's website isn't recognizing my free trial.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#40860: Oct 29th 2016 at 6:58:02 PM

[up]Fortunately, Episode 1 of Season 4 is on You Tube.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#40862: Oct 29th 2016 at 7:02:11 PM

Your best bet would probably be contacting them about it.

RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#40864: Oct 29th 2016 at 7:20:33 PM

I had no idea until just now: According to their contact page, either sponsortrouble@roosterteeth.com or accounthelp@roosterteeth.com would be what you're looking for. I'd go with both, I'm not sure which it is.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40865: Oct 29th 2016 at 7:30:10 PM

@Captain Capsase

Salem having a cadre of supporters doesn't mean all that much given that we know next to nothing about said supporters.

Watts has established he's an arrogant dick and nothing further.

Hazel has established no personality traits beyond being quiet.

Tyrian has established that he is insane and likes hurting people above all else.

And of course Cinder's a power-tripping bitch.

Nothing about these people screams "mentally well-adjusted", at least not so far. Sure, Watts and Hazel could both be relatively sane people supporting Salem for relatively sane reasons. Or they could both be every bit as unbalanced as Tyrian and Cinder, and willing support any agenda that gets them the chance to hurt some people.

Not everyone is a rational actor. Especially not in a world where any lunatic, however worthy of institutionalization, can get their hands on ultimate power courtesy of a Semblance.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40866: Oct 29th 2016 at 7:53:51 PM

[up] It's less the characters that gives me that impression and more the dynamics of the story. We know basically nothing about why the grimm (or the maidens, or silver eyes powers for that matter beyond folklore) are around and what they are, nothing about the villains' endgame, and little to nothing about their motivations beyond "fuck Ozpin and the academies."

When a story keeps something very close to its chest, it's generally an indication that the revelation of those details will become a plot point later on, or a Plot Hole. Plus the show is simply lousy hinting at things about the world and the central conflict that we don't know about. I'm fairly confident that Ozpin will turn out to be (or at least was in the past) much less of a Big Good than he seems, and I also suspect many of the villains won't be as one dimensional as they seem on the surface; still villainous of course, but not one dimensional "kill the world for laughs"; we'd already know that was the goal by now were that the case.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:00:55 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40867: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:04:26 PM

By the way, on the YMMV page for RWBY someone listed Neo smiling while trying to kill Yang as a Moral Event Horizon. I removed it as misuse, because, seriously, smiling while trying to kill a hero? That's bog-standard villainy at its finest. It has since been put back up, with the person who did so insisting that because they and one other troper agree it is therefore valid.

It still strikes me as gross misuse. I wanted to get the opinion of the rest of the thread though, because I've no interest in starting an edit war. So...anybody here see that as a Moral Event Horizon? Anyone suddenly lose all sympathy and respect for Neo on the basis of it? Anybody suddenly decide she's irredeemable scum who can never come back from that one moment?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40868: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:07:33 PM

I dislike the concept of a Moral Event Horizon and Complete Monster in general. Deciding someone is irredeemable and must be stopped at all costs because of them crossing some arbitrary moral boundary is an attitude that can easily cause more harm than good.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:10:21 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40869: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:07:46 PM

I'm in agreement with you on this, that sounds ridiculous.

Edit: Also, Capsase, I think you're making a lot of assumptions that weren't really implied. Where has it been implied that the villains (at least the one's we've seen before the new guys) were doing this just for laughs? I never got that impression with Mercury, Emerald, or even Cinder.

Just because Salem probably has reasons for doing what she's doing beyond just "Ozpin sucks, let's kill humanity" doesn't mean her reasoning is good or it should be given anymore weight than just killing (or assimilating if that's what you think) all of humanity in the first place. Anymore than finding out Ozpin might have done some horrible things to her, intentionally or otherwise, changes his position now.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:11:16 PM by LSBK

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#40870: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:12:54 PM

Also inclined to agree. We certainly don't have an example for that trope with Roman laughing at the assumption he exploded a teenage girl...which would certainly have been a failure if that was the intention. grin

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40871: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:20:53 PM

Personally I always think that an MEH should be noted to be the moment when the story rather than the audience abandons the character. The latter may be subjective, the former is far less so.

In this case, of course, neither has occurred. The story doesn't treat Neo any differently afterwards (it's only her second appearance for crying out loud) and I haven't met very many people in the audience who have either. Heck, general reaction to her fight with Yang seems to be to talk about how awesome she is. I've even seen people in the thread contemplating whether she could have a Heel–Face Turn. Doesn't seem like an MEH to me.

@Caspase

While I don't actually disagree with the sentiment, we've got to work with the tropes we've got, and misuse should be prevented. I mean, even if you dislike the Complete Monster trope, I think we can agree that people who are explicitly shown to have redeeming features definitely shouldn't be on it right?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40872: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:23:59 PM

[up][up][up] That wasn't really what I was trying to imply either, more that the fact the show holds such a crucial element of understanding its central conflict close to its chest means that it's very likely that it (meaning the villain's endgame) likely won't be what a cursory glance would suggest.

I wouldn't entirely rule out a scenario where it turns out both Ozpin and Salem are villainous; say Ozpin's deathly afraid of losing his immortality, and is consigning the world to a cycle of endless suffering because of his cowardice, along the lines of the Elven Keeper from the werewolf quest in Dragon Age Origins if any of you have played it. It would certainly make sense for a character themed on the Wizard of Oz to turn out to be a coward and a charlatan.

[up] It's a clear misuse.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:32:34 PM by CaptainCapsase

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#40873: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:33:29 PM

Then I suppose we have very different readings of the character, because I can't see them doing anything like that with the characterization and hinting they've done so far. And I would most likely consider it bad writing on their part if they did something like that, for that very reason.

Honestly, I think you're going to be disappointed when this conflict turns out to be overall a lot more black-and-white then you'd like.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:43:02 PM by LSBK

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#40874: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:38:17 PM

I'll wait a day to see if anyone else weighs in, then, barring an influx of opinions that go the other way, cut that MEH example and post a link to this discussion. Thank you to everyone who has expressed their opinion (and anyone who may yet express one).

edited 29th Oct '16 8:40:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#40875: Oct 29th 2016 at 8:39:27 PM

[up][up] Why would it be "bad" writing? It might not be the path the writers want to go down, but I'd say it's a valid path. In such a scenario, our heroes obviously Take a Third Option.

edited 29th Oct '16 8:43:15 PM by CaptainCapsase


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