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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#40151: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:09:06 AM

Side note: A person can still be attracted to someone and just be courteous to them because that's the right thing to do. IE: what Sun's doing.

[up][up]Well, while Blake is a smart girl, she's also got a habit of making dumb decisions. Clearly, she has higher Int than Wis

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#40152: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:38:16 AM

hold up, what does Sun want from Blake and why is this being used against him?

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#40153: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:42:44 AM

Not saying sun wanting something is a bad thing, but to add to the conversation I'm regards to that if I am remembering correctly his conversation with Neptune in volume 2 and one of the songs would suggest his interest in Blake.

Sun also seems like a decent person and would be willing to help. He also is one to help even when he is not asked to. Example being him and Neptune helping team Rwby with their investigation in volume 2.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#40154: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:54:38 AM

[up][up]Sun has the hots for Blake, which means for some people in the thread anything he does is suspect because he wants the Pussy Cat's kitten.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#40155: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:57:19 AM

???

does it not occur to people that maybe

just maybe

Sun is doing nice things for Blake because he's a good person and cares about her

and his romantic interest in her is entirely separate from why he's helping her??

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#40156: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:58:21 AM

He wants Black's paw around his tail...I believe that's the final conclusion.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#40157: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:02:29 AM

[up][up] Or it's both really since he is a decent person and knows that being there for someone can help you get noticed by the person. It also helps him get to know her better and see if there is a connection to actually build on. People can have secondary objectives for doing something.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#40158: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:05:24 AM

He's not decent, he's a theif...remember?

He stole a banana once.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#40160: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:24:23 AM

So she's like some old-timey villain from the 20's?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#40161: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:26:18 AM

The Black Cat in the Black Hat.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#40162: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:27:04 AM

So does she get a mustache and top hat now?

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#40163: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:27:18 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Which would rate him as decent when averaged with his helping Blake and helping team rwby.

Which his crimes or sneaking on a boat for a free ride or banana theft is mild compared to dust robbery and being a ex terrorist.

edited 13th Oct '16 11:33:42 AM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#40164: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:31:02 AM

Sun has a lot of friends he could be helping. He's conspicuously selected the one he wants to Jingu Bang.

Again, the point is that this doesn't disqualify him from being a decent person. He has an attraction and he's pursuing it in a reasonable manner. He's not being creepy about it or stalking her or doing anything out of sorts. But he doesn't get Best Guy Ever points for doing nice things for Blake, specifically, because he is personally invested in convincing her to like him.

He's courting her, and that context colors everything he does around her and her friends. He can still be a great guy and, so far, there's no evidence to suggest he's anything but. But a kind act from Sun towards Blake does not carry the same compassionate atmosphere as, say, one from Weiss or Ruby or Nora or anyone else who isn't making an appeal for her affections.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#40165: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:58:11 AM

[up]No??? Unless you're insisting that it's impossible to do anything nice for someone you're romantically interested in for the sake of being nice. In which case is kind of sad.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#40166: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:05:55 PM

If anything, Sun should be treated with more skepticism about how much he really cares. Because he wants to bang her. That's a pretty significant bias.

What the fuckity?

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#40167: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:11:20 PM

No??? Unless you're insisting that it's impossible to do anything nice for someone you're romantically interested in for the sake of being nice. In which case is kind of sad.

It's not impossible to do anything nice for someone you're romantically interested in. What is impossible is telling whether or not a nice deed for someone you're romantically interested in was done out of the kindness of your heart.

Consider Superman. Superman rescues people all the time. Frequently Lois Lane, his love interest.

We know that rescuing people is being done out of the kindness of his heart, because he goes out of his way to rescue many people who are not Lois Lane. If he only ever rescued Lois and let everyone else die, would it still be a gesture of kindness? Or would he only be doing it because he wants her?

And even if it's only done because he wants her, does that disqualify it from being a heroic deed? Whatever his reason, it's still a life saved. It just might be more of a morally-neutral act than a necessarily good one.

Sun falls into that morally-neutral zone. We see so little of him outside the context of the things he does for Blake and her friends while trying to court her. We have almost no idea who Sun is when he's not in Impress The Girl mode.

That, in a nutshell, is why any claim that Sun's kind gestures mean he cares more about Blake than anyone else should be met with extreme scrutiny. People always put on their best face for the person they're trying to woo. That's just one of the challenges in the courtship process: looking at the person presented to you and figuring out, "Is this real?"

Being attracted to a person and caring about that person are not the same thing.

edited 13th Oct '16 12:14:12 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#40168: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:15:00 PM

Okay Tobias, I'm going to give you the weapon pun because that was clever.

But no. Just because you're attracted to a person doesn't mean every nice thing you do for them is a way to try and get into their pants. If a person is doing that, they're the stereotypical "Self-proclaimed "Nice Guy"". Sun has shown nothing regarding that, ergo, he's being nice to Blake because it's in his nature, not because he wants to get into her pants (he's attracted to her, but that's beside the point).

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#40169: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:19:43 PM

There's a (frankly disturbing) trend in shows with female protagonists to portray men who are interested in the females as being inherently wrong for doing so. That they are the "NICE GUY" who will lash out and turn violent when his advances are inevitably rejected and is mocked for them endlessly.

Is that what's happening here? I mean I hope not.

SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#40170: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:21:09 PM

[up][up]I think what Tobias is trying to say is that, to him at least, not enough of Sun's actions outside of when he is interacting with Blake have been show to say with 100% certainty, and he is using that as part of an attempt to criticize the attitude exhibited in some shippers.

You guys are taking as a given that Sun does that because he is nice, but that's because you're more optimistic about that sort of thing while Tobias is a bit more skeptic.

Mind, I don't think Tobias himself is doing that because he thinks Sun just wants to get in her pants, he is just making an observation.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#40171: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:23:38 PM

[up][up]It isn't what's happening...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#40172: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:24:52 PM

Ehhhhhh, Tobias is pretty much right. It doesn't mean that, I don't think it does myself either. But it could, and it's difficult to conclude beyond a doubt that it isn't the case at all. It's pretty hard to declare anyone's actions to others being purely selfless even without a concrete motive.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#40173: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:24:57 PM

There's a (frankly disturbing) trend in shows with female protagonists to portray men who are interested in the females as being inherently wrong for doing so. That they are the "NICE GUY" who will lash out and turn violent when his advances are inevitably rejected and is mocked for them endlessly.

Is that what's happening here? I mean I hope not.

Uh, no, there's not. I think you're referring to the Dogged Nice Guy trend. Male-oriented works tend to portray them as a sympathetic hero whose romantic persistence is ultimately rewarded when the woman he desires suddenly realizes that he's the right guy for her and finally gives into the advances she's been spurning.

Feminist works have been backlashing against this trope because actual men who behave like this are super-creepy. These works have given rise to the cult of romantic entitlement and resulted in a lot of creepy, stalkerish faux-friends. Which is what the "Nice Guy" criticism is about.

Sun is neither of these. He's a guy with a healthy attraction to Blake, who is pursuing that attraction in a reasonable and appropriate matter. When the opportunity for a date came up - the dance - Sun did not lurk in the shadows and wait for Blake to fall madly in love with him. He just came out and asked for a date, and he respected her answer. He has been entirely proper and respectable in his manner of courting her.

edited 13th Oct '16 12:25:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#40174: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:25:12 PM

@Beatman: I think it's more Tobias is saying that Sun isn't actually being nice, he's just acting nice so he can get laid.

@SaintDeltora: The issue is that Sun's borderline Satellite Love Interest at this point. How many scenes have there been with him that didn't involve Blake directly? I think it was only his conversation with Neptune in Volume 2 leading up to the food fight.

edited 13th Oct '16 12:25:47 PM by BlackSunNocturne

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#40175: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:26:30 PM

This is essentially guilty until proven otherwise. And sounds sadly like "Guys can't really just be friends or just be nice to girls because they all secretly want to get it on with said girl" that I've seen more reactionary people argue for.


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