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...what? You don't like Pyrrha being happy?
edited 22nd Sep '16 9:58:40 AM by shinigamiPeter
He already has incentive to improve. He has tons of incentive to improve and is eagerly trying to do so. He's been training under Pyrrha since season 1. He doesn't need more incentive, he needs to start getting results.
No, he's not. In the opening arc of season 1, he was brilliantly competent in a team battle. Team battle is where he shines, because he's a tactician. He's shit in a direct fight, but he's smart enough to think his way around his foes and figure out strategies for using his teammates' abilities effectively. He's the Pokémon Trainer of the cast. That is where he excels.
And we've never seen that Jaune since. The Jaune that brought down the Death Stalker with a complex bit of teamwork was abruptly replaced by full-time "Jaune the comedic f*ck-up". In three seasons, he's gone from a Master Tactician to a "mildly competent" buffoon who stuns himself with his own shield and can't lead his team out of a box. That's not improvement; he's actually getting shittier over time.
Getting Pyrrha killed would be the ultimate expression of how he's not only still awful in combat but his leadership skills have degraded to the point of nonexistence as well. Like I said, after three seasons, he doesn't need motivation to get better, he needs to be getting results for the efforts he's already putting in.
Wesley was already useful long before his "development". He wasn't an Epic Badass but he had great ideas and a willingness to carry them out.
But then...that happened and Wesley never recovered from his Ultimate F*ck-Up. His relationship with the protagonists remained strained at best even after big moments like saving Angel from his undersea coffin, he began sleeping with one of the villains, he became needlessly "dark and gritty", and he finally got his chance to be with Fred just in time for her to die, for him to spend half a season unhealthily obsessed with the thing that wears her corpse, and then to die.
Wesley spent two seasons being creepy and barely tolerated by the rest of the cast, then died a failure and had to have his part of the final plan fulfilled by Illyria. If you want Jaune to start dressing in black, making angst-speeches about redemption, and then get shot in the face, then yes, Wesley would be a good character model for him.
That was my impression from what I've been hearing about it. In the fight, Jaune f*cks up and accidentally stabs Pyrrha. Is that not the case?
That might even be more potent because Jaune was the one who saw it happen - Ruby only coming in at the moment Pyrrha got disintegrated. Ruby would put all of the blame on Cinder, but Jaune would put all of the blame on himself and let the guilt turn inward.
See, that's bad too. Not only because it shits on Pyrrha by being a completely straightforward Fridging, but it also shits on Pyrrha by calling her a dogshit trainer. Because Jaune's been training. He's being trained by Pyrrha. If combat training from Pyrrha isn't enough for Jaune to take a level or two, why would "Jaune pumping iron" suddenly get the results she hasn't?
The implication that the best thing Pyrrha ever did for Jaune was to die so he could become awesome would be the most insulting thing they could possibly do to her character.
edited 22nd Sep '16 9:59:29 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.My feelings on Jaune aren't as negative as Tobias' but I have to agree with him that ep 8 really was the highlight for him, and he never seems to reach that level of competence again. You don't really need him as the main comic relief character, because you get that in some form with basically everyone else as well.
Seriously, the last thing Wesley ever did on Angel was to beg the demon who obliterated his girlfriend's soul to lie to him and pretend to be her so that, in his final moments, he can delude himself into believing that she'll be waiting for him in the afterlife. His life was a Humiliation Conga from beginning to end.
That's really not the direction I'd like to see Jaune go in.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.edited 22nd Sep '16 10:10:53 AM by shinigamiPeter
If we do hold such a strong difference in opinion toward Jaune and Adam, mayhaps may I theorize it has something to do with the way we look at things as Tropers?
Specifically the comments I've seen regarding both, they seem to have to do with how one plays some tropes straight in an annoying fashion and the other seemed to be leading up to some Fanfic tropes being played straight before he brutally subverted them.
Adam is an abusive prick, a real fucking douche, and he's gotten away with it simply because he is stronger. That fucking infuriating, I imagine it has to be for most people. To us, though, who have seen the various formula of stories dissected before us, who thought we were going to watch this guy get his comeuppance when the story very suddenly seemed it like it veered into being a yuri fanfic for some reason, and then saw that equation seemingly uniquely twisted around, it was interesting.
My opinion on these things is that while it's good to try unexpected or uncommon approaches to things, just being unexpected does not make something good.
I see a lot of people who equate the two, as if being subversive for the sake of it actually means anything, and it's huge peeve of mine.
edited 22nd Sep '16 11:03:39 AM by LSBK
I find that Adam as a stake-upper was done pretty well, myself. Will have to see how Yang's arc progresses, though. Not to mention Jaune's. It'll have to be done delicately, since too much angst and obvious levels in badass will have people clamoring "Stuffed into the Fridge!".
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.From what I've seen from interviews, he seems to be partially right, partially wrong.
He does seem to be right about the Stinger being unpopular with everyone else and Monty sneaked it in as a result - Miles and Kerry have indicated that previously, so that information in Shane's letter wasn't new. However, I don't get the impression from what Miles and Kerry have said in interviews that they're ignoring the Stinger. It's more that they'll make it relevant on their terms now rather than Monty's.
That also seems to be the case for the cafe scene. Shane claims it was left out because no-one except him and Sheena understand the truth, but Miles and Kerry have talked about a Raven scene they were forced to cut from Volume 3. While they didn't confirm it was the scene Shane spoke of, they did say that with the tournament focus, they didn't have the time and couldn't make the scene flow smoothly without breaking up the narrative. Again, they don't seem to be ignoring it, or clueless about what to do with it. They just seem to be making narrative choices.
This is something Monty, Miles and Kerry have talked about together in interviews in the past. Monty makes visually awesome decisions but is crap at storytelling (he was the one who pointed this out). Miles and Kerry don't have Monty's visual creativity, but are much better storytellers. So Monty did the awesome visuals and Miles and Kerry did the story. When you lose one, the other inevitably dominates so now we no longer have the spontaneous visual creativity, the decisions become based on dry narrative instead of exciting Rule of Cool.
Monty's creation, between Volumes 2 and 3. Everyone apparently loved the idea so the creators worked to change things in Volume 3 to bring the Maidens in, and it wasn't as much work as it sounds to make the Maidens part of the existing plot (which makes me think there was a big plot hole in the original story and that the Maiden idea slotted in so well because it fixed that problem - that's just my personal interpretation, however, and I could be completely wrong).
However, the silver eyes power, Salem and Ozpin's more-than-meets-the-eye past have been indicated from the very beginning - even the pilot episode sets up all these things, and several things occur in Volumes 1 and 2 to further them.
Jaune came to Beacon to live up to his heroic ancestral lineage, became a team leader and was responsible for getting his team home safely. However, when the real situation that makes or breaks 'heroes' finally came along, it was Pyrrha who took charge of the situation, tossed Jaune away to protect him, then went to confront the villain alone. Jaune therefore failed his ancestral legacy, he failed as a leader who takes charge in dire circumstances, and he failed as a commander who is responsible for the lives of others.
That ignores the blame he can easily place upon himself for failing to follow Ozpin's instruction and therefore 'letting' Cinder become the full Fall Maiden that was too powerful for him to deal with, who destroyed the tower, and who killed Pyrrha (something a lot of fans seem to blame him for - although not so much around here).
I think what we saw did more than enough to tragically capitalise on his feelings of being useless while striking the balance between the tragedy that makes or breaks the floundering hero and a directly clumsy moment that creates The Scrappy. It has never taken much for the fanbase to criticise Jaune, so I think the writers did a fair job.
Her Achilles Heel was not Jaune (although he was one way her flaw manifested). Her flaw is that she allows others to mould her to suit their needs at the expense of her own desires. If someone she barely knows asks for her help against an annoying student, she'll give it. If someone needs her to be the supportive friend, she'll become it. If someone wants her to be a pedestal, she'll become it. If someone needs her to become the last defence against a magically-empowered super-villain, she'll become it. Every single time, when given a choice between her desires and someone else's, she'll choose someone else's.
Sacrificing yourself for others is the mark of a hero and it's the mark of a doormat. There's a fine balance to be reached here and that's why it can be either a strength or a flaw. For Pyrrha, it was both.
In the end, the fight turned against Pyrrha for two reasons.
The second reason was that a Semblance runs out faster than magic does - briefly seen in the flashback, Pyrrha's fight gave us a better look at the flaw of pitting Semblance against Magic. A Semblance actually can go toe-to-toe with magic, but the key is the length of time this match can continue. Semblances run out. Magic doesn't. That usage limitation is the game-changer.
The first reason was that Cinder was able to distract Pyrrha with the dragon. It has been implied by the writers (although not so much by Shane's letter) that Jaune was originally supposed to somehow 'distract' Pyrrha which gets her killed. Pyrrha does get a distraction - from the dragon, not Jaune, and in a way that adds intrigue to the villains.
So, Jaune still gets a crucial mistake and a tragic failure, Pyrrha still gets a distraction and a death, and we get new clues about the villains.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Jaune didn't technically do anything wrong though. Pyrrha ignored his directions even though he's supposed to be her leader, and physically forced him away because she's more powerful that him.
His flaw is what? He wasn't strong enough to force Pyrrha to cooperate against her will? That's not really what the leaders were supposed to do (and as it has been pointed out, none of the Beacon leaders are the strongest members of their team, if it were Yang and Ruby she could have muscled Ruby away just the same).
The fault really lies with Pyrrha, for choosing to march to probable death against the wishes of the person she's supposed to be subordinate too.
Thats kinda untrue. First of all calling him a master Tactcian becasuse of the deathstaker fight is overstateing what he did.
He took advantage of a tactial opportunity.Impressive yes, but that hardly makes him a Master Tactician.Anymore than Ruby's a master strategists for coming up with the plan to take down the Nevermore
Secondly its not that he's getting shitter as much as the show keeps focusing on things he's not really good at (one on one fighting, social activities e.t.c)
Their are subtle showings of improvement. But he's lacking major feats.(Which proably is a result of the writers not wanting him be on the level of the others to quickly combined with Tean JNPR not really seeing much action overall)And I agree this is a problem.Hopefully the next Volume will address that
Lastly,kinda of wondering why people treat his performance in the first round of the tourament as some major stake against his leadership skills.When Ruby and Sun arguably did worst in their team matches?
edited 22nd Sep '16 3:21:57 PM by DeanCole
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Yeah, at that point I think we're done with the whole "leader" thing, and he never really was much of one to begin with. What help could he have possibly offered?
It would have been a hopeless battle either way, but him going too, would have just meant he would have also died. Well, assuming we're not talking about a scenario where he accidentally kills her or something.
edited 22nd Sep '16 3:19:26 PM by LSBK
You weren't here when I showed up, huh?
Seriously, we had an argument that raged for several pages over this exact thing. One person called me a troll. Me. Everyone knows me!
He took advantage of a tactial opportunity.Impressive yes, but that hardly makes him a Master Tactician.Anymore than Ruby's a master strategists for coming up with the plan to take down the Nevermore
Secondly its not that he's getting shitter as much as the show keeps focusing on things he's not really good at (one on one fighting, social activities e.t.c)
They had a golden opportunity to show him at his best - intelligently leading his team through coordinated strategies and clever tactics - during the season three tournament and they blew it on more "LOL Jaune fails at life" comedy before just having Nora win the tournament by herself through being awesome.
Jaune's problem is that his role as comedic Chew Toy keeps coming at the expense of his Character Development, his arc, and...well, his respectability as a member of the protagonist group as a whole. And it's especially jarring here because this was a situation exactly like the Death Stalker where he could really shine, and he's still depicted as a useless moron.
After three seasons, he's only ever been useful once and that was right at the very beginning. That's really bad, and if RT wants us to take him seriously as a valuable member of the group, they need to start giving him some wins.
Lastly,kinda of wondering why people treat his performance in the first round of the tourament as some major stake against his leadership skills.When Ruby and Sun arguably did worst in their team matches?
That's debatable as it's really hard to fail as epically as Jaune did, but even were it true, it's because Ruby and Sun have more respectability built up through their contributions in the past. Neither of them can be classified as the hilarious failure, consistently depicted as being terrible at everything for lulz.
edited 22nd Sep '16 4:23:37 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub." he's gone from a Master Tactician to a "mildly competent" buffoon who stuns himself with his own shield and can't lead his team out of a box. That's not improvement; he's actually getting shittier over time."
Because we dont see that in volume 2 and 3, in former he spend more time in that love triangle and we dont see another team battle but we see hm killing Ursa kinda easly in volume 3 they reduce to gag fights but he devopt better a suporting protagonist
If worst would be Ruby who eyes hax aside didnt get any devolptment aside of been Weiss friend(which said more about Weiss than her) and lose her fight with roman and his pimp cane
"the other seemed to be leading up to some Fanfic tropes being played straight before he brutally subverted them."
Yeah, from most part those who kinda like Adam as chararter have opinion the abuser thing reduce him as chararter but overall we like him as badass edgelord(I mean him maiming Yang was crowing moment of awsome)
" Everyone apparently loved the idea so the creators worked to change things in Volume 3 to bring the Maidens in, and it wasn't as much work as it sounds to make the Maidens part of the existing plot "
Yeah, I thnk the same, in my opinion Monty have the idea of dust being diferent from magic(he was very determined about that) and now I think is the reason
Shinigamipeter: can you tell me where you get your avatar? is kinda...there and it got me curious
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Oh yeah, I do recall that being the case.
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