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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#39251: Sep 21st 2016 at 5:28:07 PM

I think the Maiden thing was thought between Volume 2 and 3, but before Monty's death.

Also: We have no reason to believe Ozpin is the Wizard or connected to the Maidens in any way aside from his group protecting them.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39252: Sep 21st 2016 at 5:32:12 PM

[up]Maybe but I think is more about Ozpin as manipulative man, I dont know how much Salem and Cinder said is true but what is show dosent give that impresion

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#39253: Sep 21st 2016 at 5:35:00 PM

Random aside: Does anyone else sometimes call the main character/the show "Rubles"?

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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#39254: Sep 21st 2016 at 5:38:49 PM

[up]I've seen people refer to Ruby as "Rubles" as an Affectionate Nickname, both in real life and in quite a few fanfics

edited 21st Sep '16 5:39:02 PM by BlackSunNocturne

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#39255: Sep 21st 2016 at 5:40:31 PM

Um.

  • "I have made more mistakes than any man, woman, or child on this planet."
  • "It's like [Ozpin] wasn't even there."
  • Ozpin speaking with some mysterious voice that apparently belongs to some kind of otherworldly demon.
  • Secret underground vault of secrets.
  • Ozpin claiming that the Maiden story was around when he was young... which admittedly indicates he was around after it happened and fell into circulation. Or it could mean he was the one it was about, and that he has a dry sense of humor and didn't want to bog Pyrrha down with the details.
  • Oz = Wizard of Oz. Monty said that Ozpin was the only one who didn't need a color-based name because reasons. Plus he wears green. The Wizard wasn't what he seemed, but he ultimately gave Dorothy and the others what they wanted. Similar to how the Old Man gave the girls powers...
    • The Wizard was also an old man hiding behind a veil, hiding his true nature. Just as Ozpin hides his true purpose from the rest of the school/world presumably. The Wizard ends up giving Dorothy a gift, and the Old Man gave the Four Maidens a gift.

It's not clear-cut evidence but I'm like 60 percent sure he's maybe probably the old man in the story, or his descendant. Plus he walks around with a cane too. 65 percent sure now.

edited 21st Sep '16 5:43:24 PM by Soble

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Emperordaein Grant us eyes from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
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#39256: Sep 21st 2016 at 7:47:13 PM

You know, with the whole planned plot point of Jaune getting Pyrrha killed... I realise the big evidence to why it would have gone down poorly. Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime, anyone?

A corpse should be left well enough alone...
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39257: Sep 21st 2016 at 8:12:01 PM

[up]So far Jaune was good in voume 3 because he was suporting chararter for Phyrra story unlike otherwise in volume 2(which make Jaune the steriotypical otaku bait, ughhhhhhhh), him fighting Cinder would only be a burden, removing him at least give Phyrra the idea of dying in her own terms as warrior

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#39258: Sep 21st 2016 at 11:14:32 PM

[up][up][up]If not his descendant, the inheritor of his mantle.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39259: Sep 22nd 2016 at 12:40:21 AM

Is hard to said if he is wizard but clearly he is old, after all Salem and Ozpin since to know each other and aparenly he did something to her.

I think Grim come with the great war, otherwise there isnt a point as fighting wars is imposible with a world infest of monsters

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UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#39260: Sep 22nd 2016 at 12:42:24 AM

Actually, weren't the Grimm there right from the beginning? The opening narration implies as such.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
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#39261: Sep 22nd 2016 at 2:54:25 AM

My headcanon is that humans actually have descended from Grimms by growing/receiving Aura, and that people who have lost their Aura is vulnerable to turning back to Grimm if they stay depleted.

Hey, a headcanon. It doesn't have to make sense. tongue[lol]

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#39262: Sep 22nd 2016 at 3:09:08 AM

They turn into their prey?

edited 22nd Sep '16 3:10:09 AM by randomness4

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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#39263: Sep 22nd 2016 at 3:29:15 AM

And the preys turn back to predators.

Ironic, no?

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#39264: Sep 22nd 2016 at 3:42:04 AM

Yes it is, a looping food chain. Separate from the rest.

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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#39265: Sep 22nd 2016 at 3:47:06 AM

It probably doesn't make much sense in an ecological perspective. [lol]

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
shinigamiPeter Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#39266: Sep 22nd 2016 at 5:32:37 AM

Hey guys, I'm new here, been lurking for some time though. Hopefully we'll get along fine.

So, going back to Shane's letter for a moment.

The software. Monty was working on a very outdated program called Poser, which is...well, shitty compared to the programs used by professionals. The thing is though, he tought himself all sorts of tricks and shortcuts on it, making his work more efficient. Problem is, only he was able to utilise it to that level. Every other animator in the studio wanted to move on to Maya, which is vastly superior and easier to work with...but Monty veto'd the change as long as he could, because he didn't wanted to change his habits and learn new program. In the end, working on Poser was dragging the whole team down, since only Monty (and maybe Shane) could work efficiently on it, while everyone else were left in the dirt. With Monty gone, RT decided to finally bring the much-needed upgrade. I mean, just look at the V4 trailer- it's not even finished and was hastly put together in two week before RTX, but it still looks massively better.

Work style. Monty was a very spontaneous type of guy. He worked with no storyboard or layouts and was prone to simply throwing in shit he found cool into the story, even if it made little to no sense. This could work in his other things like Haloid or Dead Fantasy, which were just cool shit thrown together, but in a bigger project like RWBY, with a whole team behind him and an actual story and characters to needed to make sense, it just wasn't cutting it. Heck, V3 was the first Volume to be fully storyboarded- you can guess why. And I really don't understand Shane's problem with getting professional V As to work on RWBY- they are professionals for a reason. Situation with Sheena was kinda out there, but I feel like Shane thought she was entitled to be Winter just because Monty design Winter with her in mind. Problem is, after Monty's death she was an outsider who wasn't given special privileges just because she was Monty's wife, and Elizabeth was a better candidate for the role. With Merc, it was a different thing altogether- JJ wanted to cut-off from RT because he didn't liked how they do things (I'm guessing icing his podcast may be to blame), and was generally uncooperative on purpose. Plus, he found the the amount they planned to pay him (200$ for 7 episodes) "funny", even though, it was only slightly lower than average (a normal actor will receive about $33.82 an hour; what JJ would have gotten is about $28.57 per hour, assuming he even needed a hour to voice those 3 lines he had per episode), and we have to remember JJ wasn't a professional VA. [1]

Story. Well, people already said many things about it, so let me just say that I'm glad those changes were made. After Monty's death, it was up to Miles and Kerry to gather up the pieces and put them into a coherent whole. No amount of "vision" will change that if something doesn't works, it needs to be changed. I mean, it's Monty we're talking about- houndreds of ideas, no real clue how to include them right. The changes sound simply more logical. The letter says that Yang would have an extended fight with Adam- how would a first-year student even be able to do that against a fully trained fighter who's also one of the leaders of a terrorist organisation (in the world where Authority Equals Asskicking)? Pyrrha was fighting evenly with Cinder, and it was the inclusion of Jaune that killed her- seriously, there's so many things wrong with this. Primo- again, a first-year student (even if a prodigy) actually having a shot at a fully powered Fall Maiden who even without that was a fully trained Huntress using weapons that were a counter for Polarity. Secundo- why was Jaune even there? He's a reasonable guy who knows both his limits and limits of his friends, and who isn't afraid of simply retreating to have better chances later (like we saw both in the JNPR vs BRNZ and in him wanting to call for help and not engage Cinder directly). Why would he go against an enemy he knows he is hopelessly outmatched against? Tertio- and this is more meta- it would be an awful idea considering the situation in the show. Jaune is pretty much a main male character of the story, a deutragonist, and he is going to accompany Ruby for some time. As of now, he is a pretty well-liked character (outside of Tumblr at least), maybe not many people's favourite, but still viewers are mostly ok with him, especially after V3. Making him bein a direct reason of Pyrrha's (a definitive fan favourite) death though would make people want his head on a pike. And making one of the main characters, with whom we'll almost certainly have to stick with for good part of the story, so hated be like RT shooting itself in the foot.

The funniest (well, not for Shane) part is that in the end it was a Senseless Sacrifice on Shane's part. I mean, I don't know what exactly was his plan (other than possibly destroying Monty's swan song series), but after the initial shock, most people agreed that the changes were there for good reasons. And Shane basically commited a bussiness suicide, considering that not many people will want to work with someone who made a stunt like that.

DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#39267: Sep 22nd 2016 at 6:17:58 AM

To be fair.I don't think it was originally intended to let Cinder get the fall maidens power judging from Shane's complaints about Cinder being OP because of it.

Personally I think the Aura transfer was supposed to go though without incident. So Cinder and Pyyrha each have a half of the maidens power and can fight on a level playing field.

Of course its impossible to say for sure and even if it were the case it still has the same problem

edited 22nd Sep '16 6:20:30 AM by DeanCole

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
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#39268: Sep 22nd 2016 at 7:13:24 AM

...Interesting avatar you got there.

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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#39269: Sep 22nd 2016 at 7:16:36 AM

What's so interesting abou-ohhhhhhhhhhh.

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#39270: Sep 22nd 2016 at 7:24:21 AM

Actually, weren't the Grimm there right from the beginning? The opening narration implies as such.

Sure, but we don't know what "the beginning" is. The beginning of the universe, or just the beginning of recorded history as Remnant knows it? It's strongly implied that the series takes place After the End. Just off the top of my head:

  • The ruins outside Vale are a downtown metropolitan area.
  • Someone blasted the f*ck out of the moon, which would require weapons with a level of destructive force that the people of Remnant have never even been hinted to possess. Like, if Atlas had mega-nukes, there wouldn't be an alliance of four kingdoms. Atlas would have supreme rulership, because no one else in the world could compete with that.
  • The planet is actually called Remnant.

EDIT: Removed the second "f*ck" because having two of them made the bullet list more aggressive than it was intended to be.

edited 22nd Sep '16 7:37:30 AM by TobiasDrake

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#39271: Sep 22nd 2016 at 7:37:27 AM

RT decided to finally bring the much-needed upgrade. I mean, just look at the V4 trailer- it's not even finished and was hastly put together in two week before RTX, but it still looks massively better.

I'd argue it's not "massively" better. The best thing in that trailer was Ruby's Spawn-cape.

Plus, he found the the amount they planned to pay him (200$ for 7 episodes) "funny", even though, it was only slightly lower than average (a normal actor will receive about $33.82 an hour; what JJ would have gotten is about $28.57 per hour, assuming he even needed a hour to voice those 3 lines he had per episode), and we have to remember JJ wasn't a professional VA. [1]◊

Oh my goodness someone who cites things! I like you!

Now again, with this VA's testimony, is Shane completely full of it?

The letter says that Yang would have an extended fight with Adam- how would a first-year student even be able to do that against a fully trained fighter who's also one of the leaders of a terrorist organisation

Kids punching way above their weight class is almost Anime 101. I don't know why we're holding "first-year vs fully trained fighter" as a bad idea when Team RWBY has walked all over armed terrorists for at least two Volumes.

An extended fight sequence doesn't have to mean Yang would stand a chance (I mean look at Neo). An extended fight just means it went on longer. A longer fight sequence with Adam (as opposed to that schlep with Velvet) would've been nice.

first-year student (even if a prodigy) actually having a shot at a fully powered Fall Maiden who even without that was a fully trained Huntress using weapons that were a counter for Polarity.[[/qutoeblock]]

I mean if you're going to put this much emphasis on "a first-year shouldn't be able to fight The Avatar" you should also ask why would Blake jump in to attack Adam when she clearly couldn't win.

[[quoteblock]]Secundo- why was Jaune even there? He's a reasonable guy who knows both his limits and limits of his friends, and who isn't afraid of simply retreating to have better chances late ... Why would he go against an enemy he knows he is hopelessly outmatched against?

Jaune the boy who tried to date out of his league even though the girl he was after wasn't interested in him in the slightest? He's a reasonable guy? (That might sound cold but if a girl says no to you three times and shows zero interest, attempting to serenade her in front of her friends is kind of not reasonable)

And why would Jaune go against an enemy that he's hopelessly outmatched against when said enemy is probably going to kill the girl he cares about? Why does anybody in action films go to save their love interests from the evil Doctor Terror Mcbadguy and his army of 40,000 medical student ninjas?

but still viewers are mostly ok with him

Outside of tumblr most people are pretty ok with Adam. He's a reasonable guy.

Making him bein a direct reason of Pyrrha's (a definitive fan favourite) death though would make people want his head on a pike.

If fans can't handle a character making mistakes, or being the source of their own misery, they really shouldn't read or watch drama at all. Stories like Breaking Bad, Bioshock Infinite, Full Metal Alchemist, heck, Romeo And Juliet are almost entirely built on the protagonists doing something foolish that comes back to bite them later. There are characters that are meant to be Hate Sink's. Jaune is not one of them.

For Jaune being the reason Pyrrha died would have absolutely capitalized on his sentiment about being useless, and be a tragic lesson for him. Jaune was always a danger to his teammates and himself by lieu of not being ready for Beacon's entrance exam in the first place. In this alternate scenario where Pyrrha's death is his fault, he ultimately Can't Catch Up and it cost one of his teammates their lives.

That could be meaningful character development. The only trade-off would be people calling it manpain. But I mean people already call it manpain so I don't really see a difference.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:49:48 AM by Soble

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#39272: Sep 22nd 2016 at 7:43:33 AM

While it would be a brutally tragic end to his character arc, that's just the thing: the show clearly wants to keep using Jaune.

That's the kind of thing that only works if you're supposed to hate Jaune, and if that were the case, he wouldn't be in Team RNJR. Jaune tends to be played as a sympathetic guy who's just in over his head. YMMV on whether it works, I say no, but that's the clear intention of his character.

If the message of Pyrrha's death was meant to be that Jaune sucks at everything, never belonged here, and is promptly going the f*ck away and never coming back, that kind of brutally tragic end to his arc would work. But not if we're still supposed to be rooting for him in season four.

Also, while it's true that many stories are built on flawed characters making mistakes, this transcends that. There is a world of difference between "Edward Elric screwed up and wound up paying a pound of flesh to avoid accidentally killing his brother" and "A beloved character is dead because Jaune is so f*cking worthless as to be an active detriment to his own side in combat, and consequentially needs to be exiled from the cast because he has not improved, will never improve, and is actively getting worse with every passing season."

Seroiusly. There is no coming back from that. When most characters commit a terrible crime and spend their arc repenting for it, it's a crime against people in their universe and/or themselves. This is a crime against the audience, and fans are much less forgiving of that.

In short, it gets back to what I've been saying about the way the show treats Jaune. They don't present him as flawed. They present him as not belonging here at all. Things like "Jaune kills Pyrrha" are not an argument in favor of him undergoing Character Development to be better. They're an argument in favor of him going the f*ck away and no longer wasting our time and ruining his own cause, because he's had three seasons to undergo Character Development already.

Three seasons in, we don't need further convincing that Jaune is a worthless failure. That's his been his role from day one. We need to see him improve.

edited 22nd Sep '16 7:58:28 AM by TobiasDrake

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#39273: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:17:15 AM

[up] Bit of a point here from me; do we even know how would Jaune have gotten Pyrrha killed?

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#39274: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:18:34 AM

Via distraction...of his presence.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#39275: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:18:58 AM

So, losing Pyrrha and then going to Mistral isn't incentive for him to improve?

Seroiusly. There is no coming back from that.

I just don't agree with this at all.

Pyrrha dying as a result of Jaune's mistakes - mind this season we actually see him being mildly competent in a team battle so he is improving just a little - is a perfect jumping point for Jaune to start getting better. And tragic, because we actually did see him improving just a little. He and Pyrrha were both simply out of their depth against the newly empowered Cinder.

I should bring up Wesley from the Buffy and Angel series. This guy took a lot of falls, and there was nothing sympathetic about him for awhile. He was a dorky, protocol-obsessed bureaucrat who none of the main cast respected, and pretty much sucked at his job. After 1 or 2 seasons of mostly just being there to be annoying and obstructive, Wesley actually becomes a useful, likable character and even something of a Bad Ass.

Jaune is nowhere near as bad as Wesley was. At least he hangs out with the main cast and gets along with them. If a character like Wesley can become a likable character after all that time being useless, I can't fault Jaune.

When most characters commit a terrible crime and spend their arc repenting for it, it's a crime against people in their universe and/or themselves. This is a crime against the audience, and fans are much less forgiving of that.

Forgive me but I'm never going to agree with that mentality. If that's the fanbase I'm a part of, with the mentality of "a character I liked was killed due to the mistakes of another character, I will hate said character forever," I want nothing to do with those people (...dang, that's a lot of fanbases I'm going to have to ragequit from now..).

I'm easily pleased and I don't usually "hate" characters as much as others might - but unless that character is just so poorly written and pointless, or part of an Aborted Arc, there's no reason to just hate Jaune. His character flaw has always been general incompetence. Seeing him genuinely attempt to save Pyrrha and fail would just be saddening, not rage-inducing, at least to me.

This show even sets up Pyrrha as the character who will die/suffer some kind of setback. She's the female Achilles. Her Achilles Heel is Jaune. Jaune rushing to save her would be somewhat ironic. I'd hardly consider that a crime, even if I do like Pyrrha, she's The Ace. Her being Killed Off for Real would barely surprise me. It's only suspect because of her last words with Cinder and the way they illustrated her death.

Things like "Jaune kills Pyrrha" are not an argument in favor of him undergoing Character Development to be better.

That raises the question then: why not? He doesn't "kill Pyrrha"... or does he? How was that scene supposed to go? Does he like throw his sword and stab her in the chest or something? That would be pretty dumb, and then I would hate Jaune, and then I'd wonder what Miles and Kerry were smoking and probably order it from the Rooster Teeth store.

I'm imagining it mostly going down the way it did, except when Pyrrha gets Cinder into a chokehold Jaune shows up, and then Cinder gets ready to blast him and Pyrrha has to let her go or something, which ends up giving Cinder a window to set Pyrrha on fire. Regardless, Jaune failing to save Pyrrha isn't just "oh my god he f'cked up again please get rid of this character." That can easily be Jaune finally starting to take a few levels in badassery, pumping iron, starting his Rocky IV training montage and running to the top of a mountain to shout Pyrrha's name - and part of a character arc where Jaune has to deal with My Greatest Failure.

That might even be more potent because Jaune was actually there - Ruby only coming in at the moment Pyrrha got disintegrated. Ruby would put all of the blame on Cinder, but Jaune would internalize it and put all of the blame on himself.

As it stands now if they really played up Jaune's guilt, it would likely be superhero logic, "I was jettisoned almost a hundred miles away and I failed to save my girlfriend from the unkillabe superwoman, this was entirely my fault." Versus a situation where he actually is somewhat responsible, and that angst becomes very real, and he has to learn to deal with his failure, mature and grow stronger from it.

They're an argument in favor of him going the f*ck away and no longer wasting our time and ruining his own cause, because he's had three seasons to undergo Character Development already.

Jaune has had two episodes of focus in Volume 1, a romantic subplot in Volume 2, and maybe three fights where he actually got to do something. JNPR is very much the B-Team of side characters who rarely get to do anything. They have not had three seasons of Character Development, they've barely had 5 episodes of character focus.

Which... is a problem with the writing itself, admittedly, but I don't place that on Jaune's character. If this were Season 6 or 7 of a show where every episode was 30-40 minutes and not 5-15 on a good day, and they still hadn't done anything with him, then I might go, "Okay they need to start justifying Jaune's existence or else get rid of him, this character isn't developing beyond Butt-Monkey."

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:47:53 AM by Soble

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