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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#38701: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:24:56 PM

"Why must you hurt me, Blake?"

That is literally what a lot of abusers would say while abusing their SO. "Why must you hurt me?", "You know I don't like this.", etc. are basically Stock Phrases for Domestic Abusers.

Also: If she drives him to those points it kind of paints the picture that Blake doesn't want what Adam's "love" entails.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38702: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:28:02 PM

[up][up]I'm honestly not sure how proving Adam isn't abusive would make him a more complex character. It's not like losing Black drove him to his extremist ways.

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38703: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:38:46 PM

[up] More complex as in "He wasn't always abusive forwards Blake because".

[up][up] Can I Just have this one thing!? Sorry, but I just this one time want things to be less clear cut than it is just presented.

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hamza678 Red Like Santa from Christmas Beacon. Since: Apr, 2013
Red Like Santa
#38704: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:38:57 PM

Blake. Unless he had a fling with Mercury some time.

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#38705: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:39:09 PM

I don't understand why people think abusers can't be complex. I mean, we don't normally write them that way, but that doesn't mean they can't be complex characters.

Smallville was a terrible show, but the incredibly complex, emotionally destructive, mutually abusive relationship between the father and son duo of Lionel and Lex Luthor was one of its highlights. Both remained complicated, multifaceted characters who had huge numbers of fans, and stole every scene they were in.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38706: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:45:41 PM

[up] I guess my point is that when the whole scene came in, I didn't find Adam's behaviour being "abusive". Really Yandere, but not abusive. And even if it is, then Adam is only now acting like this due of feeling like Blake betrayed him in more ways than one. But saying that "he was abusive since the beginning" just irks me.

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Cross (Don’t ask)
#38707: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:51:37 PM

If it makes you feel better we still don't know in what way and even if it was intentional.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38708: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:54:27 PM

"In the past" doesn't necessarily mean...since the beginning, it just means "at some point".

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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#38709: Sep 11th 2016 at 10:54:33 PM

Ambar, complex villains are great and all: But RWBY has yet to have a villain that's complex. The most complex villain was Roman, and he only got complexity right before being nommed on by the Griffon.

I'm not saying a character who's an abuser can't be complex, but at this point the villains are not complex.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38710: Sep 11th 2016 at 11:14:11 PM

Generally speaking, I don't think the show is as complex as fans want it to be. The good guys are powered by goodness, the bad guys are unapologetically sinister, and there's not much middle ground to be seen.

It's certainly a bold series that just proved itself willing to go to some pretty dark places, but the characters are fairly straightforward and its conflict is pretty blatantly a classic Good v. Evil setup. Complete with a soulless evil army of darkness.

Mind you, it's entertaining because it's got really well-executed straightforward characters and blatant Good v. Evil setup. Works of fiction don't have to be groundbreaking to be great.

edited 11th Sep '16 11:15:43 PM by TobiasDrake

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#38711: Sep 12th 2016 at 7:29:21 AM

Ambar, complex villains are great and all: But RWBY has yet to have a villain that's complex

And if you go back to my first posts in the thread you'll find me lamenting that very thing. I just fail to see what any of that has to do with Adam being an abusive ex. Adam doesn't lack depth because he's an abuser, he lacks depth because RWBY doesn't give its villains depth.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#38712: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:14:03 AM

I was about to say that complex is being misused here as you're all looking for is the word "depth", villains with depths, but yeah.

Anyway, I think the lack of depth might hurt RWBY in the future, but it's okay right now. But I'm also of the belief that up until Volume 3, RWBY was only okay. I enjoyed it and I'd recommend it to people who are fans of what it delivers, but it's nothing amazing either due to its issues holding it back. Volume 3 I feel was a step forward since it gained more plot cohesion and better pacing.

But yeah, the lack of villain depth is sad. I don't mind if it's black & white, but I'm just not fond of one-dimensional focal characters. Hell, I'm fine with Adam being an abuser (...I feel I should rephrase that, but you know what I mean) or clear cut wrong, but I just wish there was more to him. Just like I wish there was more to Cinder and so on.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:57:34 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38713: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:29:49 AM

[up] Yeah, maybe depth is more correct word. I really want Adam not actually be abusive but just really mad for Blake turning her back on her, but if the Word of God takes the easy way out, then screw this.

I don't mind my villains being evil and heroes being good, but there are some things I wish would be bit more elaborate.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:31:02 AM by TPPR10

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38714: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:39:30 AM

I mean, anyone who'd try to decapitate someone for breaking up with him probably wasn't a very good boyfriend in the first place. People don't go from "Decent, upstanding person" to f*cking murder in a heartbeat. He's violently controlling and vindictive as an ex; there's no reason to assume he wasn't as a lover.

Moreover, "Blake turned her back on him" as a Freudian Excuse is victim-blaming Blake. It's saying that she made him be a shitty person, putting the impetus on her, obligating her to have stayed with him so he wouldn't be this awful human being that he is. But, like, that's not really how relationships work.

Blake leaving Adam didn't make him become a shitty person. Blake left Adam because he's a shitty person. Even if you take out the romantic angle, that's been true of their relationship since the Black trailer, and I don't think the series really has anything to gain by downplaying Adam's shittiness for the sake of a misogynistic message about how it's a girlfriend's duty to fix her man.

edited 12th Sep '16 8:48:10 AM by TobiasDrake

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38715: Sep 12th 2016 at 8:54:00 AM

[up] What if Blake leaving Adam made him a shittier person? What if without Word of God Adam always tried to assure that everything is going to be okay, whatever they might do together (or whatever he does)? What if Blake was a Morality Chain for him? She might have left him for a reason, but the important part are the details. What are the specific reasons for her leaving him? Is it how he derailed the whole purpose of White Fang? That his behaviour as the leader of White Fang made her unable to see as the man she once knew?

edited 12th Sep '16 8:58:06 AM by TPPR10

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Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#38716: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:05:02 AM

That idea of her as a Morality Chain to an already shitty person sounds way more fascinating than just "he was always abusive, simple as" answer. Honestly, the picture painted before of someone who slowly slipped into evil with his extremism sounded way more fascinating than he was always a terrible person because that gives something to explore.

Adam being just a bad person is boring because he's just a bad person and that's it. And you can't take terror in how terrifying that makes him when he isn't unique in that issue and he's in a position where the series presents it as being more.

Overall, if that's all that it is to him, it's disappointing. I'll keep an open-minded going into things, but that Word of God was a terrible idea.

edited 12th Sep '16 9:07:01 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38717: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:29:45 AM

Morality Chain is an abusive relationship. Specifically, it's emotionally abusive. "Abusive" doesn't have to mean he physically beat her every night or something. If he's using her as the only thing standing between him and jumping off the deep end, then she's being emotionally blackmailed into staying with him, because he's putting the obligation on her to keep him on the straight and narrow.

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Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#38718: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:31:03 AM

I'd definitely say that making him an abusive ex boyfriend crosses a line in the audience's perception. A freedom fighter turned terrorist is fine. An abuser is not. That's just how it is.

And I'd thought it was a mentor/foster sibling relationship until they explicitly pointed to it being romantic, yeah.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Cross (Don’t ask)
#38719: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:33:36 AM

[up][up]Does it matter if it's intentional or not?

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38720: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:45:28 AM

[up]x3 Except Morality Chain is not abusive, at least it doesn't have to be. I mean, you're saying that relation between Integra and Alucard is abusive? Morality Chain is commonly the voice of reason to someone. Besides, Love Makes You Crazy.

Honestly, the way I have been describing Adam reminds me of Scharlachrot. In the arcade mode of 3, she tries to collect Celestial Stones to activate the Divine Celestial Weapon. In her mind, the reason why she's doing this is to protect the world she and Sophie (Weiss) share. However, once you reach her, she notices that Sophie is nowhere to help or stop her which really snaps her and wants to destroy the world if it means not having Sophie by her side. However, if Weiss does come to her, she says that why didn't she come to her sake, she decides that she would kill her and herself so that they can be Together in Death. Mind you, Scharlachrot is a Child Soldier at a really young age and the only things in her world are the now dismissed Drexsel Institute and Sophie, and she is being brainwashed by the Institute to fulfil their last mission. Otherwise while she can be bit unhinged, she is generally calm around Sophie as long as no one gets between the two of them.

edited 12th Sep '16 9:47:37 AM by TPPR10

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God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#38721: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:48:41 AM

[up]I would avoid using Alucard as any sort of sane standard.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38722: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:49:00 AM

The relationship between Integra and Alucard is f*cked on so many levels that it's impossible to really classify it. It's, like, the poster child for horribly unhealthy relationships. But yes, part of that is that it is extremely emotionally abusive. Alucard is absolutely monstrous to Integra.

There is nothing healthy about using someone as a Morality Chain. It obligates Blake to be solely responsible for Adam being a decent person, which is one of many ways abusive, one-sided relationships manifest. That is emotional blackmail, and holding her responsible for him Jumping Off the Slippery Slope is classic misogyny, plain and simple.

edited 12th Sep '16 9:50:04 AM by TobiasDrake

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God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#38723: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:51:56 AM

Now the primary point I see some people trying to get at, "I just wish he were more," is something I can understand.

That Adam is and was always an abuser seems to some be an incredibly boring, one-dimensional thing. Possibly contrary to the vision we had of him before.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38724: Sep 12th 2016 at 9:58:55 AM

Mind you some people might turn out to be Morality Chains after something bad happens to them. One example is Disgaea 3: Absence of Justice with its bad ending. In it, Mao goes full evil and tries to attack Earth, and then defeats the remaining of his friends who are standing. However, before he can submit to his anger over Aurum, Raspberyl tries to save him witha Cooldown Hug. And then Aurum kills Beryl right in front of Mao's eyes. Cue Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum. Mind you, Mao's and Beryl's relation has been childhood rivals, and even with Mao trying to act sort of Card-Carrying Villain or hero who doesn't know what being a hero means, he does deep down care for his friends. Heck, the bad ending itself is partly triggered by death of another character, who otherwise would actually open Mao's heart as he would mourn over his death.

Not everyone knows that they themselves are a Morality Chain to someone. Sometimes only the person who has one knows whom they are. And sometimes not even them know that. You can't force one to be with someone if they don't know about it.

edited 12th Sep '16 10:04:20 AM by TPPR10

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#38725: Sep 12th 2016 at 10:03:30 AM

Now the primary point I see some people trying to get at, "I just wish he were more," is something I can understand.

I'll stick with "there was room for him to be more than what he currently seems to be based on what little we knew about him around Volume 2."

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