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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38526: Sep 7th 2016 at 8:54:52 AM

No matter what anyone does Winter looks bad. It was practically Cinder eque in execution.

I mean, it also makes Qrow look bad, but that's the thing about being a public drunkard. When everyone already thinks you're a worthless shit, you don't really lose anything by acting like one. Letting Qrow get under her skin resulted in Winter humiliating herself in front of her commanding officer, while Qrow broke even by coming off as just drunk asshole Qrow at it again.

That's precisely why you don't feed trolls.

Besides, the silver-eye power, according to the legend, works on Grimm. We cannot automatically say it would impact Cinder because she's human and shouldn't be affected.

Cinder clearly believed it would impact her given the way she freaked out when Ruby activated it. Just because she wasn't there, doesn't mean it didn't hit her. Pyromancers have more options in escaping from ice than other people do.

Technicely it wasn't really solved. Vale still fell, the dragon's still there, and Grimm are being attracted to it.

Also CCT is down, which means the three remaining nations are isolated from each other in a time of great paranoia and fear.

And fear brings Grimm, as we saw with Vale's fall.

Shit's bad, yo.

It's a temporary solution...

It's not really a solution at all. To anything. CCT's still down, Vale is still gone, Pyrrha's still dead, Ozpin's still missing, Cinder still has the Fall Maiden powers, and Beacon is still lost. Technically, Ruby beat Cinder with her Limit Break, but nothing was gained and everything was lost in the process. It was a pyrrhic victory at best.

By definition, solutions solve something. Cinder may have gotten sucker-punched at the end but she still accomplished everything she wanted in Vale and not one of those victories has been taken back from her.

edited 7th Sep '16 8:55:56 AM by TobiasDrake

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38527: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:03:19 AM

[up] Believe is different from actually effecting her. Cinder's reaction would be a sort of Didn't See That Coming. Also, last time I checked, having fire powers doesn't help you from being petrified.

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SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#38528: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:07:37 AM

And the big dragon is still petrified só Cinder can't use it to Go out and Destroy Remnant with it or whatever.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#38529: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:10:35 AM

Except you're assuming everyone thinks Qrow is a useless shit. He is a trained Huntsman, so that automatically means he's the exact opposite of useless.

Cinder clearly believed it would impact her given the way she freaked out when Ruby activated it.
No, the reaction was a freak out because Ruby suddenly started producing tendrils of bright light from her eyes. That was a Big "WHAT?!" in the "what the fuck is this?" sense

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#38530: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:15:05 AM

[up]Not According To Keikaku! [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38531: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:15:20 AM

Is the dragon petrified or frozen? Because they keep using the latter word, and having fire powers would absolutely help you recover from being frozen.

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Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#38532: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:16:45 AM

It was a pyrrhic victory at best.

Pyrrha didn't win anything, whatchoo talkin' about?

Puns aside, this is really more of an incomplete victory for Cinder than a Pyrrhic one for the Ozlluminati. On the grander scale, she got pretty much what she wanted; the towers are down, the kingdoms are paranoid and fearful of each other, and Ozpin is (seemingly) out of the equation.

That being said, the city of Vale was supposed to fall. The Atlesian Knights were supposed to remain under her control, Huntsmen and potential Huntsmen by the hundreds, not to mention Atlas' human soldiers were supposed to die.

Cinder won a terrific victory, but she's Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor who failed to follow up with destroying the shipyards and oil stores. Or George Meade at Gettysburg who failed to counter attack the Confederate army and let is slip away.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#38533: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:17:28 AM

[up][up] The dragon is frozen in place. And being frozen in place doesn't need to involve actual ice.

edited 7th Sep '16 9:17:43 AM by TPPR10

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Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#38534: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:19:08 AM

Yeah, I was under the impression that it was more of a frozen in time deal. No real icy effects were shown or implied.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#38535: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:21:47 AM

Yeah. The Grimm Dragon is stuck to the side of the tower and no ice is involved.

It does appear to be discolored though, as it looked much paler in the background when it was shown when Blake was roof-hopping in Vale.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#38536: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:26:38 AM

Which is a classic time-stop visual cue.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38537: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:27:06 AM

Things at Vale are under control, but the school... It's... it's not that simple. That thing, whatever it is, doesn't seem to be dead. Don't get me wrong, you did a number on it. But it's not disappearing. It's... kind of... frozen. I know that doesn't sound too bad, but it keeps attracting more Grimm to the school.

Qrow: (Chuckles) Well, a giant monster is currently frozen on top of Beacon Tower. And you're here, safe in bed.

All they say is that it's frozen. They say nothing of the context, but given that the CCT network only went down after Ruby fired her Limit Break in the tower, it's reasonable to assume that the white flash did a bit more than just making the dragon stop moving.

If nothing else, it has to have adversely affected Cinder in some way or Ruby would be joining Pyrrha in the ash pile. Because Ruby was alone and unconscious in a room with her right after freezing her dragon. If Cinder wasn't forced to break herself free and escape with her life, there would have been nothing left of Ruby for Qrow to find and bring back.

Cinder either did not or could not kill Ruby after the white flash and the former makes no sense.

edited 7th Sep '16 9:28:27 AM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38538: Sep 7th 2016 at 9:38:26 AM

Maybe it pushed her off the building...

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#38539: Sep 7th 2016 at 10:41:09 AM

Go away for a couple days to do school work, have the thread just blitz along. Suppose I should get used to that.

Also Ambar, we actually don't know if alcohol impairs Qrow. Why?

Yes we know that it impairs him. Alcohol by definition impairs people. And if you're going to try and suggest that Qrow's aura protects him from it, you've got to ask this then—why is his speech slurred? If he's not impaired by it in anyway, his speech should not be effected. Sure you can make the case that alcohol effects different people in different ways, and that's all perfectly valid, but it clearly does have an effect on him. That's undeniable.

Ruby mentioned Qrow training her, and if we assume that she also mimics his personality as well as fighting style, we've seen Ruby doing incredibly stupid and brash decisions, and we've also seen Yang doing them.

Which means that Qrow picking a fight with Winter was possibly not him being drunk and making a bad decision, but simply what he'd normally do, judging by his nieces, especially since Yang is genetically related to him. Shared Family Quirks and all that

Glynda—one of the most no-nonsense people in-show—defends Qrow from Ironwood by saying he's always drunk. What Qrow "would normally do" and what Qrow will do while drunk are arguably synonymous.

As for Ruby and Yang making similar poor decisions, first off, they're teenagers. Them making bad decisions is far more excusable than a man in his forties making bad decisions. Additionally, shared family traits are as much learned as they are genetic—and in this case have to be learned, seeing as Yang might be related to him, but Ruby is not. You say they're mimicking his personality as though that's evidence that alcohol doesn't effect him, but being an alcoholic—or an addict of any kind—is a part of who you are and has a massive effect on your personality. Ruby and Yang, having grown up idolizing Qrow, could easily be mirroring the behaviour they've seen from him while he's intoxicated—without having to ever drink themselves.

As an anecdotal case in point, I have an alcoholic uncle. While drunk he enjoys, among other things, making misogynistic statements. My cousin, his oldest son, drinks very lightly because he does not wish to wind up like his dad. He still spent years aping his father's misogyny (until university and his current girlfriend slapped it out of him).

You are absolutely correct that children ape the behaviour of parental figures. But that doesn't somehow prove that Qrow's alcoholism isn't a problem. If Qrow is a) a major influence in his nieces' lives, and b) has poor impulse control due to drinking, then absolutely his nieces can be expected to have poor impulse control as well. You didn't mean to, but you've just made a fairly compelling argument for Qrow's drinking having a negative impact on his family.

One thing I do want to make clear, by the way? None of this detracts from the fact that Qrow deserves a lot of credit for filling the void in his nieces' lives while their father was out of the picture due to depression. If anything, it's a tribute to his parenting skills, and the fact that he's clearly a pretty decent guy under the addiction, that the girls have turned out more or less okay, despite his personal issues. I just don't think we can claim they wouldn't be better off if he drank less.

Cinder won a terrific victory, but she's Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor who failed to follow up with destroying the shipyards and oil stores. Or George Meade at Gettysburg who failed to counter attack the Confederate army and let is slip away.

I would like to note that comparing Meade and Yamamoto there is pretty unfair. Meade's army was absolutely exhausted after Gettysburg and whether he could have done anything to follow up is pretty questionable.

That said, your overall point stands. Whether Cinder can actually exploit the victory she's won remains to be seen. To continue the Yamamoto comparison, she may end up still dominating the early part of the next season, but it should all start to come away from her in the finale.

Cinder either did not or could not kill Ruby after the white flash and the former makes no sense.

There's a part of me that almost hopes that when it's revealed how Ruby's ability works, that it will be neither ice nor a timestop. Just so that we can all be left surprised.

edited 7th Sep '16 10:45:32 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#38540: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:01:19 AM

Pyrrha didn't win anything, whatchoo talkin' about?
I get itttttttttt.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38541: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:46:32 AM

Pyrrha did win her fight in the final, so there's—

Wait, how can a final round have two matches? This tournament made no sense.

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WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#38542: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:04:55 PM

wild mass guessThe dragon is paralyzed with fear absolute terror due to staring into the unfathomable depths of Ruby's soul.wild mass guess

edited 7th Sep '16 12:06:56 PM by WillDeRegio

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38543: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:09:13 PM

[up][up]Whats you talkin' bout, foo? The final round was a penultimate match.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38544: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:17:30 PM

But they keep removing team members after each match. First round has four, second has two, then they go down to one. Who can they cut for the final? The fighters would have to each be half a member—

...

Yang's arm is fighting Pyrrha's ashes in the final.

edited 7th Sep '16 12:17:45 PM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38545: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:22:08 PM

I guess pacing was at risk for making sense...or just not show all the fights, we ain't missin' nuts with that.

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Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#38546: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:57:49 PM

[up][up] I'm fairly certain it wasn't the finals. Yang and Mercury had just gotten done and those two were the next fight up.

Yeah, I just checked, it's clearly not the final fight of the tournament because they had to do the randomization process to find who the next fighters were.

edited 7th Sep '16 1:01:05 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38547: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:22:18 PM

And they have to split the teams in half again to be consistent with the other rounds. Yang and Pyrrha each need to provide half a fighter to represent their teams. Thus: Yang's arm v. Pyrrha's ashes for the final match.

My money's on the ashes. Only being a severed arm means that Yang's arm gets only one of her weapons, but Pyrrha's Semblance is polarity. Her ashes don't need limbs to use her lance and shield.

Plus, they have a mobility advantage over a flopping arm.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:24:33 PM by TobiasDrake

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AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#38548: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:39:55 PM

I assume they'd just do one on one's until only one person was left and they were the winner.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#38549: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:48:12 PM

Yes, I suppose Cinder just being killed like that by Ruby would be rather anticlimactic and unsatisfying.

Ruby didn't kill the dragon, so she wouldn't have killed Cinder anyway. All Ruby did was freeze the threat at a point-in-time as a ticking time-bomb, and no-one (least of all Ruby) knows what stage the countdown's at.

True enough, but it's a solution nonetheless that ended the season with a Deus ex Machina as opposed to the heroes actually doing anything triumphant.

Deus ex Machina requires solving an unsolvable problem. We don't know if the dragon was an unsolvable problem so we can't claim it either was or wasn't. We do know that Ruby solved absolutely nothing. She didn't save Pyrrha. No-one saved the tower. She didn't even kill the dragon. All she did was freeze it. Not only has she frozen it in a place that prevents Beacon Tower being fixed, but it's continuing to attract Grimm to area, causing a build-up at the Grimm right at the edge of a city that is now locked down, effectively under siege and without global communications. In other words, Ruby not only hasn't solved anything, but she's actually prevented anyone else solving the situation.

Cinder clearly believed it would impact her given the way she freaked out when Ruby activated it. Just because she wasn't there, doesn't mean it didn't hit her. Pyromancers have more options in escaping from ice than other people do.

I interpreted Cinder's reaction differently. I don't think Cinder had the faintest idea what was happening and hadn't had a clue such a power existed, was possible or was possessed by Ruby.

Is the dragon petrified or frozen? Because they keep using the latter word, and having fire powers would absolutely help you recover from being frozen.

A lot of fans keep thinking in terms of frozen, as in block of ice. My suspicion is that Ruby's actually frozen the dragon in time. I just can't help thinking that something about Ruby's silver-eye power is time-based. I'm also suspicious about her speed semblance - is it really speed, or is she on Ozpin's path? We already know that Weiss can speed up due to time dilation glyphs, and Ozpin used super-speed against Cinder, but his Semblance is time-based, not speed-based. I'm thinking that Ruby's power is going to be time-based, and if her Semblance does genuinely turn out to be speed rather than time dilation, then that silver-eye power definitely will be connected to time.

So, yeah, time-bomb.

And if you're going to try and suggest that Qrow's aura protects him from it, you've got to ask this then—why is his speech slurred?

I'm not going to debate how impaired alcohol makes Qrow. What I am going to observe is something that did show up in the relevant episodes. Qrow's slurring changes depending on the situation. I am not going to debate how drunk he actually is, but I don't think we can trust the slurring to tell us. There are signs he was playing that up because he goes from weaving and slurring to stone-cold steady and clear inside the room. If we're going to focus more on real life than how alcohol gets used in stories (often unrealistically), then the realistic observation has to be made that there's no way in hell his body would sober up fast enough to explain the change in movement and speech in such a short space of time.

That's not a comment on how drunk he is, but is a comment on the possibility that he will fake the extent to which he is drunk, regardless of whether he is sober or drunk at the time he's faking.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:57:01 PM by Wyldchyld

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38550: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:52:41 PM

It could be frozen in time. I mean, I hadn't considered it but I'm not exactly attached to the ice theory. It was just my assumption when they kept saying "frozen". White flash + dragon is frozen = flash-freeze.

But ultimately, the point is that whatever Ruby did must have affected Cinder in some way or Cinder would have murdered her to death five seconds afterwards. Cinder having to thaw her way out of the ice was just my theory, but something about Ruby's white flash resulted in Cinder not being able to execute an unconscious child as she lays helpless on the ground.

The dragon being frozen in time is a pretty cool idea, I agree. My point is just that it had to do something to Cinder because the fact that Ruby is alive today disproves Cinder No Selling the flash.

Whatever it did to her, Cinder was capable of fleeing the scene to lick her wounds before Qrow arrived, but not capable of retaliating against the helpless Ruby. It's also possible she fled because of Qrow's arrival, but given the performance she'd already given against Pyrrha and Ozpin, it's unlikely she would suddenly turn tail and run just because he was there. Unless she was injured or disabled in some way by the flash.

It's also possible she didn't crawl away but was instead recovered by Neo or something. There's a lot of possibilities. But whatever the answer is, "Cinder was completely unharmed by the flash and still in perfect fighting condition immediately afterwards" is impossible.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:56:48 PM by TobiasDrake

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