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fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#37951: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:35:24 PM

What would be the rational reaction that Jaune could have taken in that situation then?

PD: Realism in RWBY? Pfft...

edited 30th Aug '16 2:35:46 PM by fasoman1996

Uni cat
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37952: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:35:34 PM

It would have been more effective to shout back while keeping an eye out.

That's rational. Jaune was not, he was emotionally compromised.

He shoulda trusted Ozpin.

Arguably rational, but he was still emotionally compromised.

He should have obeyed Ozpin.

Understandable, if he were a soldier. He is not a soldier, none of these kids were trained to be soldiers. They are warriors, different skill-set.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37953: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:36:27 PM

Expecting people to act rationally is the height of irrationality.

You're not wrong.

I'm not upset with Jaune for failure to act rationally. I'm upset with him for letting his emotions get the better of him during a crisis situation, for not trusting either Ozpin and Pyrrha enough to believe they know what they're doing, and for abandoning his post which put everyone's life in danger.

I expect better from most of Teams RWBY and JNPR. Regrettably, I don't expect better from Jaune and never have. Because he's the f*ckup that gets other people killed.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:37:00 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37954: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:38:37 PM

Where I disagree with you is that behavior would have been unique to Jaune.

I do not expect better of RWBY and JNPR.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#37955: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:40:10 PM

Yeah, how dare Jaune get worried for a friend who is in pain!?

And who did Jaune get killed besides Amber? Ozpin is MIA and Pyrrha died by her own choice.

If you are one of those people who blame others for causing events that ultimately led to someone's demise, you could easily blame Ironwood too.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:41:05 PM by fasoman1996

Uni cat
TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#37956: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:40:50 PM

Screw this, I'm going to bed. I will answer "What I the point of teams" when I can.

Only sometimes posts
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37957: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:42:14 PM

Oh, and I'm especially frustrated with him for not trusting Pyrrha to know what she's doing.

The only reason he's even halfway competent is because she's taken him under her wing and gone out of her way to build him up. She became his mentor out of the goodness of her heart, and he repaid all the hard work she put into him by not having faith in her at the time it was needed most.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:43:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37958: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:42:48 PM

[up][up][up]Well, if Cinder hadn't been able to kill Amber, she wouldn't have got the Fall Maiden's mantle.

So Jaune's inability to be a proper look-out did lead more directly to all of that.

Thing is, I would see the rest of the main cast doing the same thing in his position.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:43:21 PM by God_of_Awesome

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37959: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:44:11 PM

If you are one of those people who blame others for causing events that ultimately led to someone's demise, you could easily blame Ironwood too.

Uh, yes? There's a reason Ironwood showing up with his fleet in the season 2 finale was coded as a Bad Thing. I'm pretty sure we are supposed to think that Ironwood going behind Ozpin's back to bring in his forces which were then compromised by Cinder was a mistake.

Ironwood is that military guy in every movie who insists on launching nukes at the alien and then tries to pull shit in the second act that just makes everything worse.

edited 30th Aug '16 2:45:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#37960: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:44:57 PM

if we talk about beng racional, them Cinder would have Kill Jaune by a shot to the thorat or anything resemble since she is kill fighter agaisnt a rookie.

"Oh, and I'm especially frustrated with him for not trusting Pyrrha to know what she's doing. "

Phyra herself wasnt sure of what is going to happen, she choice in the typical "there is not other option left" kind of deal, they didnt know how it was going to turn and Jaune didnt ether.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37961: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:50:40 PM

Had it been Yang on guard and Ruby or Blake in that pod, I could have seen it ending the same way, except Yang would then charged head the right fuck long into Cinder right after.

And then Ruby on guard and Yang or Weiss, same thing. Except Ruby has sniper instincts, so she might've just peeked back.

Nora on guard and it's, uh... why the fuck is Ren in that pod? I dunno. Oz is giving Ren the Wizard's power, that's it. And Nora's being a spastic freak and bam, Adam just edgelorded his way through some dude we've never heard of and got the Wizard's power. Way to go, Nora.

Weiss, Ren, Blake, Pyrrha, those four I could peg as maybe have the mental fortitude to keep on watch.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37962: Aug 30th 2016 at 2:55:44 PM

Cinder's interesting shoes (and glass anklet) make a very interesting noise even when she moves only slightly. Even if no-one was watching the lift, we know how long that corridor is. If the argument is that Jaune turned away for more than a few seconds for it to be long enough for her to race up the corridor and get into position to fire that arrow, then her heels would have made a hell of a racket.

Remember how loudly everyone's feet echoed around the corridor when everyone was merely walking Pyrrha to Amber the first time she went down there? Note the word 'echoed'. Walking feet echoed. The later scene of the trio running up the corridor also made loud running noises.

So, Cinder did mysteriously get into position without making any noise at all, and that therefore doesn't tell us how long it took her to get up the corridor or for how long Jaune's back was turned to the lift. It doesn't tell us how she got into position either, given how silent she was.

From what I can see of this discussion, everyone agrees that Jaune made a mistake, so that should really be taken off the table instead of being a point that gets returned to and argued over on a repetitive basis - everyone agrees, so drop that particular point. The debate is really about whether or not people agree with Tobias's interpretation of what Beacon Academy is, what student hunters are being trained to do, how to interpret the personalities and abilities of each of the characters that get dragged into the discussion (ranging from Jaune himself, to Ozpin, to anyone from RWBY, JNPR or other), and what the consequences of Jaune's mistake actually are.

On a personal note, I think most of the kids would have acted the way Jaune did. We certainly have evidence of that sort of thing. Just look at the Volume 1 finale, Ruby turning quickly to Penny is what enabled Torchwick to blast her off her feet, which is why Penny entered the fight.

In fights since, we always see people call out to their friends and get distracted as a result. Nora gets badly distracted when Ren goes down (and in the battle for Beacon, we see Ren gets just as distracted when Nora goes down). Team CVFY get distracted when one of their own goes down. In fact, it actually became a little annoying to me that the immediate reaction every time a student goes down in a fight, is for the relevant friend to turn in that direction, call out a name and reach out a hand. By the time I got to Coco doing it when Velvet goes down after revealing her weapon, I was quite twitchy.

My point is that I'm happy with the interpretation that any of the kids would have reacted the same way as Jaune when Pyrrha started screaming, no matter how many years of combat school they've been in prior to going to Beacon.

Focussing on Jaune also doesn't address a very big problem with Amber's location that made me twitchy the very first time we were introduced to the vault. It was the standard Beacon Tower lift. I decided to make the assumption that Ozpin was pulling out an executive key, opening up the button panel to press the secret button inside the panel - or something that was an alternative to the giant red "Authorised Personnel Only" button flashing away on the panel that no students ever pressed or wondered about (my God, I was glad to see that joked about in RWBY Chibi because it means the creators have acknowledged that's an issue - given that the main show never addressed it, it's not something they need to fix, but they at least know how it looks to fans).

My point here is that Ozpin was the guardian of the vault and its contents. How easy or difficult it is to get into the vault (including where an unused lift defaults to when waiting for the next call into service - because that would matter if Cinder needed to call the lift) is Ozpin's responsibility. Indeed, the very fact that he made a decision to keep Amber in that location looks like it has a story to it given Cinder's angry observation about just that subject.

Jaune does bear some responsibility for the mistake he made but that does not automatically make him responsible for everything that happened after that mistake was made - or indeed for the events that led up to Cinder getting into the vault in the first place.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:09:34 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#37963: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:00:10 PM

I'm not sure I'd call Jaune's decision a mistake. It was based on worry for his best friend- and he acted to help when he thought she was in trouble.

While the results of that decision aren't good, I find it hard to call the decision to help your friend a bad one.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:00:28 PM by EpicBleye

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37964: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:03:32 PM

[up]It was a mistake from a purely rational standpoint.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#37965: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:04:41 PM

We all agree that Jaune comit a momentary mistake, what we dont agre with him is the NATURE of that mistake, many here think is minor oversight for rookie, he think is THE point that seal the whole thing, that is where the whole thing lies.

"So, Cinder did mysteriously get into position without making any noise at all, and that therefore doesn't tell us how long it took her to get up the corridor or for how long Jaune's back was turned to the lift. It doesn't tell us how she got into position either, given how silent she was."

Well, it fairly posible that machine,Phyrra scream and them taking mask the noice Cinder make, she is fairly competent women so all she have to do is run fast, prepare her armour and land a shot

In fact for what I see more that Jaune screw out, people use this as another reason Cinder a is villian sue(I dont agree, granted she is VERY close to that)

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#37966: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:12:47 PM

[up][up]...why are we looking at this from a purely rational standpoint? Lord knows that the situation they were in does not allow for much rationality.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37967: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:14:26 PM

I just rewatched the scene in question.

Jaune wasn't standing very far from the machine. The Vault isn't that big, and we see him pretty close by when Pyrrha gives him one last glance before climbing into the machine.

His back is turned for 13 seconds between hearing the scream and the arrow impacting Amber. Assuming there weren't minor time jumps between skips, it takes Cinder anywhere between 0 to 13 seconds to get into position, aim her shot, and fire. He doesn't ask any questions either; he just runs over to the machine and looks around worriedly. The only person who speaks during that 13 seconds is Ozpin, who tells Amber, "I'm so sorry."

When they turn back around, not only is Cinder clearly visible but so is the back of the chamber. So visibility would not have been a problem had Jaune been watching out like he was supposed to.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:15:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37968: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:16:36 PM

[up][up]Oh, there's more to it than that viewpoint, but there it is nonetheless.

I still argue that Jaune would not be unique in making this mistake.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37969: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:21:18 PM

'm not sure I'd call Jaune's decision a mistake. It was based on worry for his best friend- and he acted to help when he thought she was in trouble.

While the results of that decision aren't good, I find it hard to call the decision to help your friend a bad one.

This is where phrases like "honest mistake" or "terrible mistake" or "foolish mistake" or "understandable mistake" (and so on) come in. Referring to something as a mistake doesn't tell us whether it was a mistake that should not have been made, was as a result of stupidity, or was the result of something that most people could relate to or would also have probably made in that position.

I think it's clear that Jaune made a mistake. From what I'm seeing in the content of the past several pages is the idea that most people seem content to regard it as an understandable mistake, a mistake most people - in that situation - would also have made.

That makes it a very different kind of mistake to the argument that what he's done is the worst mistake in the world that gets people dead, the tower destroyed, and wasn't the kind of mistake anyone else would ever have made, etc.

I, for one, interpret what little we saw of the Ozpin/Cinder fight as not a fight between equals. Even with the full Maiden power, Cinder couldn't touch Ozpin and Ozpin was easily pushing back the full blast of her power even though it was hitting him directly. Whatever happened (and it looked like a white flash of power akin to - but not the same as - the white flash of power that Ruby caused), it's not because Cinder was on equal terms with Ozpin (to me, it's clear she wasn't) and it's definitely not because she won (to me, she was actually losing at that point). Something interrupted the fight - whether that was of Ozpin's doing or a third party (I believe third party), we'll have to see.

Despite the fact that I believe Ozpin still outclassed Cinder even when she had the full Maiden's power, I'm not convinced that Jaune spotting her would have saved Amber. Cinder made the decision to follow them down which meant (in my eyes) she had made decision already to confront Ozpin and two students come what may. Given that decision, I am not confident in claiming that Amber's life could definitely have been saved or that Cinder would definitely have failed to obtain the remaining Maiden power if Jaune had continued to watch the corridor.

Truthfully, we don't know how things would have panned out had Jaune continued to watch the corridor, but when dealing with an archer, we cannot automatically assume Jaune could have reacted fast enough to alert Ozpin anyway, given that we don't know even know how Cinder travelled up the corridor in the first place (given, among other things, the fact that the characters do not hear her approach).

Well, it fairly posible that machine,Phyrra scream and them taking mask the noice Cinder make, she is fairly competent women so all she have to do is run fast, prepare her armour and land a shot

Yes, that is a completely valid possibility. My point is merely that we don't know. It's yet one more thing we have to guess or assume if we're going to argue about the consequences of Jaune's action.

The Vault isn't that big...

It took quite a bit of walking to get there the first time, and quite a bit of running the second time. Perspective shifts around quite a bit for scenes so it is hard to pin down the vault's actual size, but we do know travelling time was extended enough to regard it as being a decent length. It was big, we just can't say for certain how big.

edited 30th Aug '16 3:30:56 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#37970: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:33:50 PM

With full aura Cinder couldn't just shoot Jaune in the throat and stealth kill him. She'd end him flying but she'd give herself away. I expect she was waiting in the shadows or something for him to drop his guard.

But any of the students would have done that. Some of the pros probably would too. The only one that seems detached enough to deliberately ignoring someone they care about in pain is probably Qrow and Ozpin himself.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#37971: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:39:51 PM

[up][up]The other posibility is Cinder being THAT sneaky, which it could be

[up]She dosent need to kill Jaune, just toss him away which she could do with a fireball., hell she could just shoot the machine and ruin the whole thing and would achive the same thing.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#37972: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:47:19 PM

I expect if she didn't immediately kill Amber before anyone noticed her Ozpin would have taken her down.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37974: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:58:32 PM

A recording stand? I'm not sure I understand.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
#37975: Aug 30th 2016 at 3:59:17 PM

Yeah, you need to read her note with it on the right.

It could be the good kind of crying I guess?


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