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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#37776: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:26:19 AM

[up]Because he was eaten by a Grimm, the Grimm was then shoved into the airship, which then crashed and exploded.

Also on the Roman/Neo thing: The FNDM can be delightfully fucked up. Thankfully the parent/child and lovers thing I've only ever seen once. I've actually yet to see any fic involving them being siblings though.

Roman never struck me as old enough to be her father.
Vague Age. All of the adults look young. Hell, Ironwood is probably the biggest example. I'm not sure about other countries, but iirc, in the United States you have to have served for years to be a general and the youngest one can become a general is usually in the late fifties. Ironwood does not look like a man in his late fifties at all, even with the slightly graying hair.

So for all we know, Roman could be in his thirties and old enough to have a teenage daughter.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:30:53 AM by BlackSunNocturne

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#37777: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:43:45 AM

Because he was eaten by a Grimm, the Grimm was then shoved into the airship, which then crashed and exploded.

He was also hit by Super-Yang with enough force to shatter the mech he was inside of, and he tucked and rolled to safety with a slightly dirtied coat.

Weiss was hit in the back with a chainsaw and regained consciousness five minutes later.

Blake was stabbed through the chest abdomen and managed to run away through the fire and flames, Dragonforce-style, while carrying her teammate.

Mercury's legs were so badly injured he had to get them replaced with prosthetic ones, and yet he managed to defeat his master assassin of a father and drag him out of a burning house.

Penny was ripped to pieces and scattered inside of an arena that was invaded by Grimm. And yet we all expect her to return once Ironwood's hijacked, discredited army manages to get back inside of the Grimm-infested warzone that Beacon has become, pick up all of her pieces, and rebuild her.

Neo was carried off into the sky thanks to Ruby's actions. And unlike Ruby, Neo has no method to slow her fall. She's just going to land on a building somewhere?

Auramachines, son! Aura saves everybody but Torchwick has to die because he was eaten? Psh.

Even Pyrrha's death was retconned out of existence by Chibi Nora.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:59:39 AM by Soble

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#37778: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:45:22 AM

Neo was carried off into the sky thanks to Ruby's actions. And unlike Ruby, Neo has no method to slow her fall. She's just going to land on a building somewhere?

Parasols, son!

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#37779: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:54:34 AM

The speed of her descent, the distance between that ship and the ground, combined with a storm of Nevermore around her? I mean I have to assume that the technology used in parasols on Remnant is pretty tough stuff given Neo blocked an energy blast from Yang's gauntlet using it, but it's still ridiculous that the parasol should save her completely - and I'd still blame the energy blast deflection on her aura.

I mean imagine an ordinary person surviving a thousand-foot drop using a parasol.

Neo can outstyle almost anyone sure. But you can't outstyle the laws of physics, bruised and bleeding they might be. The only way she can reasonably survive that fall is by pulling a Sonic the Hedgehog and home-attacking her way to safety.

edited 29th Aug '16 8:55:26 AM by Soble

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TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#37780: Aug 29th 2016 at 8:57:54 AM

Laws of physics are nothing more than an annoyance to any action character worth their money. The Rule of Cool easily overwrites it.

Also, those were Griffons, not Nevermores.

edited 29th Aug '16 9:02:08 AM by TPPR10

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AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37781: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:31:13 AM

Sorry for the late response, but how are Yang and Mercury being set up as counterparts?

Well, let's see. They're both thrill-seeking adrenaline junkies and Extremity Extremists with Blood Knight tendencies. They're both exceptionally cocky and used to getting their way. They're the close-combat experts of their respective teams, and prior to their leaders' respective power ups, the most obviously powerful members of said teams. They both follow in the footsteps of a parental figure who trained them how to fight in their own style. Heck, you can even throw her Missing Mom and his Abusive Dad into the mix—and that was before she lost an arm defending someone she cared about, in contrast to his losing his legs murdering someone he hates.

It's a little less obvious than some, if only because of Mercury's gender, but seriously, if he was a girl? The similarities would all but scream at you. Add the fact that he played a direct role in her humiliation and expulsion from the tournament—and was probably throwing the fight in the process—and a rematch between the two of them becomes a virtual plot necessity—and Yang's going to need either a fake arm, or a brand new fighting style to win under those circumstances.

[up]I think his point was that just as Neo's survival would be ridiculous, but possible if the show wants it, one could do the same for Roman. Now, personally I tend to think that she's more likely to be alive than he is, but that's because of how the show set it up, rather than any logical physically possibility.

TPPR10 Craving for fish from up north Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Craving for fish
#37782: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:38:00 AM

I feel like that how death should be seen possible depends on Rule of Drama. Basically, how dramatic the "death" or clear cut it seems indicates the chance of character being dead. Factor in everything what happens after it. Roman having the bridge dropped on them and then having the thing what ate him crash and burn the ship? Dramatic enough to say "He's dead". Neo experiencing something what can only be loosely seen as some sort of Disney Villain Death, especially when the hero did something what wouldn't directly kill them? Not dramatic enough to warrant "She's dead".

edited 29th Aug '16 9:38:32 AM by TPPR10

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#37783: Aug 29th 2016 at 9:41:01 AM

This thread moves faster than other threads.

Honestly, with Roman gone and Neo maybe gone, I think the only villain left who I have a real interest in is, of all people, the White Fang Lieutenant with the chainsaw. I rather hope he and Weiss have a rematch. Given his "Finally I get to kill a Schnee" rhetoric it seems he's got a personal grudge there.

All of the White Fang seem to have a grudge against the Schnees. It was established in the first season that they're locked in bloody war with the Schnee Dust Company, specifically. White Fang kill Schnee employees and Schnee soldiers or whatever kill White Fang Faunus...Faunuses...Fauni?

Getting to kill a member of the Schnee family is like being at war with England and getting to kill a member of the British Royal Family. It's cathartic as hell and you're going to be famous for life.

But I mean, Weiss was winning. She's already pummeled that guy six ways to Sunday. I don't think he'd even gotten a single hit in, and then all of a sudden he just grabs her.

You're pretty much describing Mighty Glacier fighting styles in a nutshell. The entire point of the character archetype is that they're big, tough, and can tank a lot of hits while searching for an opening to turn the fight on its head.

I'm still really fucking suspicious of this disintegration stuff. Like, I didn't even care for Pyrrha too much, I was neutral towards her. It's just, when you leave someone dead with an arrow in their throat, that's one thing, but when you go through the trouble of making the body disappear, I feel that veers into Never Found the Body territory. (Was this trope ever directly linked in reference to this argument?)

I had the opposite thought. Pyrrha's vaporization is a way of establishing that she is really definitely truly For Realzies Killed Off for Real. Especially when you take into account Ruby's Limit Break right after it. It would not be difficult to come up with theories for how she was able to survive the arrow to the throat and stop the bleeding or something long enough for help to come. Or maybe she's frozen like the dragon Grimm and they can rescue her and get her medical attention.

But no. None of those ideas work because Cinder turned her to ash. She was turned to ash and is never coming back from that no matter how hard you theorize, because you can't resuscitate f*cking ash. Thus, the audience can conclude that despite the big freeze effect immediately afterwards, Pyrrha is 100% and without question perma-dead.

I feel like Ozpin and Salem have been too open with their alignments to be anything other than what they seem. Ozpin for example is highly unlikely to secretly be evil, when he did things like let the kids enjoy their fun and mutter to himself that he really hopes they'd never have to fight in a war, though it was likely, both done when he's got nobody within earshot to want to deceive.

I literally just came from typing up a big post in another thread about how bad people consider themselves to be the good guys all the time. Wanting kids to enjoy their fun and hoping they'll never have to fight in a war means that Ozpin is nice. That is no guarantee that his motivations are ultimately benign, however. Many good people are not very nice, and many people with truly awful aspirations and goals are.

It's unlikely that Ozpin is a Generic Doomsday Villain trying to obliterate the world or something, because those kind of characters rarely care much about children. But that isn't evidence of any sort that he doesn't have some dangerous goal or agenda. Hell, even the "Good" are capable of great and terrible crimes.

All that said, I'm not convinced there's anything untoward about Ozpin. My money's on him being the old man who empowered the four seasons.

There's also, I freely admit, a degree of video game logic in the specific way it plays out, which is not exactly uncommon for that show (my fiancee and I both noticed that the show runs on boss fight rules almost immediately).

Yeah, the characters literally have HP meters. [lol]

I may despise Adam, but watching him stomp Yang doesn't effect my suspension of disbelief—and the fact that his apparent second-in-command previously beat Weiss (after a much harder fight) is a part of the reason why.

Part of the reason for me is the Fridge Brilliance that Yang's whole shtick is absorbing kinetic force and repaying it in kind.

It's a cool ability, but I can see how a bladed implement could cut right through it. Like, I'm sure she absorbed plenty of kinetic force from her arm being dismembered by Adam's blade, but at that point, it doesn't really matter so much. She's a damage sponge, but he's playing by a different ruleset - one where damage is inflicted in a more permanent fashion than being punched in the aura by robots.

Consequentially, Yang is probably the worst member of Team RWBY to put against Adam.

But honestly, I'm getting really sick and tired of this "big and muscular = slow" thing. Big and fat character will undoubtedly be slower than a small, slim character. But muscular guy? Muscle generates speed.

Blame Samurai culture. And Cowboy culture. Both tend to operate on the idea that it doesn't matter how strong you are after a certain point because the sword or revolver will put you down just as dead as anyone else. What matters is being quick on the draw. Thus, you want to be strong enough that you can use your weapon effectively but not too big, lest you make a larger target of yourself or the weight of your muscles starts to work against you or somesuch.

The prevalence of combat ideologies that revolve more around a lethal weapon than brute strength have created this impression in the minds of many writers that Goliath will lose to David every time, rather than that outcome being an unexpected surprise as it was intended to be.

Where it really gets ridiculous is when this logic gets applied to fistfights, an arena where the bigger guy almost universally dominates - to the point that bare-handed fighting circuits like boxing or MMA tend to separate people by weight class so the lightweights don't get effortlessly crushed by the heavyweights.

Was it confirmed what Neo is based off of? My first guess was the Chesire Cat.

She's Neopolitan ice cream.

Neo was carried off into the sky thanks to Ruby's actions. And unlike Ruby, Neo has no method to slow her fall. She's just going to land on a building somewhere?

She can teleport.

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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37784: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:13:04 AM

I think Neo was adopted by Roman, kind like C Inder "Adopted" Emerald(which if you think about it, make her fit the evil stepmother part of C Inderella)

Ignoring for a moment the Wizard of Oz connections that Salem will also likely have, Salem is probably playing the Fairy Godmother role to Cinder(ella). An evil Fairy Godmother (I look forward to Salem's rendition of Holding Out Ford A Hero).

Also they are somewhat thrill seekers, but Yang is pleasen and party girl when not in combat while Mercury tend to annoy people for the hell of it, Yang like a good fight, Mercury like to win and to crush is oponent(as is song theme show) both learn from their parent both while Yang father is caring, Marcus...isnt

In that case, Mercury would have had the world's most supportive mother given that Yang... doesn't. [tup]

Vague Age. All of the adults look young. Hell, Ironwood is probably the biggest example. I'm not sure about other countries, but iirc, in the United States you have to have served for years to be a general and the youngest one can become a general is usually in the late fifties. Ironwood does not look like a man in his late fifties at all, even with the slightly graying hair.

I dunno. Ozpin is probably the biggest example. It's hinted that he's at least eighty years old (and let's face it, he's probably been around for centuries, even millennia, especially if he's the Old Wizard). Despite that, he doesn't look any older than Mercury. Hell, Qrow looks older than Ozpin (life - aka The Bottle - has not been good to Qrow - man needs a little Snowbird action to take the years back off).

I mean imagine an ordinary person surviving a thousand-foot drop using a parasol.

Neo can outstyle almost anyone sure. But you can't outstyle the laws of physics, bruised and bleeding they might be.

Imagine an ordinary person surviving a thousand-foot drop using a gun-scythe. tongue

First rule of storytelling, a story's internal logic can trump real life laws of physics (and any other real life scientific laws) if it's the kind of show that permits it. This kind of show permits it.

And we've seen Neo do something reminiscent of teleportation once before.

edited 29th Aug '16 10:25:28 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#37785: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:17:13 AM

[up][up]Teleport range?

edited 29th Aug '16 10:17:32 AM by randomness4

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#37786: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:23:37 AM

[up][up] If you're going to link to that song, link to the soundtrack version so there's no dialogue or sound effects playing over it,

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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37787: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:26:01 AM

[up] I deliberately chose that version because my point is the evil Fairy Godmother, not the song itself.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#37788: Aug 29th 2016 at 10:30:48 AM

I had the opposite thought. Pyrrha's vaporization is a way of establishing that she is really definitely truly For Realzies Killed Off for Real. Especially when you take into account Ruby's Limit Break right after it. It would not be difficult to come up with theories for how she was able to survive the arrow to the throat and stop the bleeding or something long enough for help to come. Or maybe she's frozen like the dragon Grimm and they can rescue her and get her medical attention.

But no. None of those ideas work because Cinder turned her to ash. She was turned to ash and is never coming back from that no matter how hard you theorize, because you can't resuscitate f*cking ash. Thus, the audience can conclude that despite the big freeze effect immediately afterwards, Pyrrha is 100% and without question perma-dead.

See, maybe I'm different, but that's precisely what rung my alarm bells. See, I would've bought she bled out and suffocated from that wound. But when the narrative stops to extra make sure and point to me, "See, see how dead she is? She's super dead, nothing coming back from that." That's exactly that point I stand up and go, "Nope, nuhuh, you're fucking up to something. Ozluminati confirmed."

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#37789: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:01:33 AM

Vague Age. All of the adults look young. Hell, Ironwood is probably the biggest example. I'm not sure about other countries, but iirc, in the United States you have to have served for years to be a general and the youngest one can become a general is usually in the late fifties. Ironwood does not look like a man in his late fifties at all, even with the slightly graying hair.

Under extreme circumstances, the US has sent generals as young as 25 onto the battlefield. Ironwood should be older than average for a general since promotions in peacetime generally revolve around the guys ahead of you retiring or dying of old age, but I just wanted to point out that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he can be younger as well.

But you can't outstyle the laws of physics, bruised and bleeding they might be.

Are we watching the same show? Physics go out to lunch all the time.

See, maybe I'm different, but that's precisely what rung my alarm bells.

I agree. A cold dead corpse would have convinced me she was dead and would always stay dead. Reduced to cinders leaves them an opening for her to come back in a magic flash of light without having to awkwardly drag a pesky corpse around.

In a show like RWBY, I end up believing who will stay dead more based on what Word of God says that what the show itself depicts, because the show prefers to write around actual depictions of death and we're still early in the story.

While I believe Pyrrha is going to stay dead based on what the writers and actor have said - and honestly, I'd prefer it stay that way - I still think her coming back is within the realm of possibility.

People go on about how Torchwick has served his narrative purpose and it would make no sense to bring him back and I don't believe that for a second. We don't know where the story will eventually take us, or what role a still living Torchwick could play. And even if they don't have a role for him now, they might want to add him later. Even Sherlock Holmes came back from his Torch the Franchise and Run ending when Sir Author Conan Doyle needed him.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#37790: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:05:25 AM

"This thread moves faster than other threads."

oh you dont belive how fast it does

" is never coming back from that no matter how hard you theorize, because you can't resuscitate f*cking ash."

Nagash for warhammer universe would have a word for you(granted he was THE lich but still)

"She's a damage sponge, but he's playing by a different ruleset - one where damage is inflicted in a more permanent fashion than being punched in the aura by robots."

well, if you see the black trailer you will see he does the same trick with a robot, he block the laser and the unleash in a powerfull blow...kind like Yang actually, also that moment was like a matator wating the bull to atack...and yes, the Bull here is Yangevil grin

"Salem is probably playing the Fairy Godmother role to Cinder(ella)"

And I think Ozpin is prince of Cinderella story

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#37791: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:22:20 AM

[up] You mean the prince that Cinderella marries? The prince in the Cinderella story was a good guy, start to finish. Even in the versions of the fairy tale where Cinderella goes through Well-Intentioned Extremist and into villain, he remains the good guy (although he does have to kill his own wife for having become worse than her Wicked Stepmother ever was).

I thought your stance was that Ozpin's got a dark past? Or am I getting you confused with someone else? I think most of us think that Ozpin's got some very big skeletons in some very dark closets.

By the way, in Frank Baum's story of Father Time, Father Time's mistakes get him lassoed by a kid which stops time for a while until the kid releases Father Time again (but not before he gets to do some things he's always wanted to do which causes a bit of chaos when Time starts moving again).

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#37792: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:27:32 AM

[up]My stand with Cinder is that she want to become a hunter like Ruby and did the best like Phyrra(I mean the way the battle amber look like Hunter training) and Ozpin is the "prince" so to speak, everything was right until she see or is reveal SOMETHING, them she change and become who it is now.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#37793: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:30:24 AM

More fuel for the Cinder=Summer theory!

Also, I still think Roman is alive. After all, he was swallowed whole, and the Grimm take time before vanishing...the Griffin could've shielded him from the explosion and crash, with the help of Aura.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#37794: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:51:11 AM

Under extreme circumstances, the US has sent generals as young as 25 onto the battlefield

Younger even. Custer was twenty-three when he was breveted to Brigadier-General in 1863.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#37795: Aug 29th 2016 at 11:59:44 AM

I agree. A cold dead corpse would have convinced me she was dead and would always stay dead. Reduced to cinders leaves them an opening for her to come back in a magic flash of light without having to awkwardly drag a pesky corpse around.

In a show like RWBY, I end up believing who will stay dead more based on what Word of God says that what the show itself depicts, because the show prefers to write around actual depictions of death and we're still early in the story.

I look more for narrative clues, and this one's not unlike a similar trick I once pulled in a story of my own: having a character reduced to a skeleton in an explosion, then dropping a building on top of the skeleton for good measure, just to ensure there was absolutely no question that she was Killed Off for Real.

Characters survive seemingly fatal strikes all the time, and having the corpse then be frozen by a big booming flash to potentially be thawed out and rescued later would be an obvious Only Mostly Dead. She would be coming back in the future because of course she would; her body's intact and millions of stories have told us already that being frozen stops all body functions and makes it possible to save you from the injuries or illness you've succumbed to.

Characters survive life-threatening injuries by being frozen all the time. Turning someone into a popsicle long enough to get them medical treatment is a classic method of saving characters. I don't really think that anyone would be convinced that Pyrrha is really dead by pulling a Nora Fries.

Much less common is characters surviving being burned to ash. In fact, that's a classic way to kill off characters in Death Is Cheap settings. Burning vampires to ash is fatal in almost every vampire setting. The Order Of The Stick uses the "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" combo here and there to firmly establish that a character can never be resurrected despite being a DnD setting. When a character is turned to dust, that's a cue to the audience that they are gone forever.

edited 29th Aug '16 12:00:22 PM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#37796: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:04:11 PM

Unless RWBY suddenly turns into Dragon Ball in which case she's absolutely being revived.

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#37797: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:06:17 PM

To be fair, Vegeta only came back after turning to dust due to a sudden massive shift in the direction the writer wanted the story to go in. Toriyama decided too late in the game that he wanted to toss out Gohan as protagonist and make it about Goku after already building up how superior Gohan is to both of them. Vegeta was necessary for his plan to make Goku relevant again, so it was suddenly revealed that Vegeta's been waiting in the wings of the afterlife to be sent back and pitch in.

Whereas previously, a big deal was made about how this is Vegeta's real and true perma-death, he will never see Goku again because he's lived a life of horror, and he considers that an acceptable price to pay for his mistakes. Everything about Vegeta's final sacrifice screams, "This time's for real," and was only changed because of a last-minute adjustment to the finale.

So it's the exception that proves the rule.

EDIT: Since you mention anime, Fullmetal Alchemist also used turning to dust to indicate that homunculi, who can regenerate from anything, had hit their limit and are now dying for real.

edited 29th Aug '16 12:08:07 PM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#37798: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:09:48 PM

Regeneration, the common woman's weapon.

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BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#37799: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:16:25 PM

Turning to dust is also how Alexander Anderson in Hellsing dies, and he's got regeneration that puts him on a level playing field with fucking Alucard

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#37800: Aug 29th 2016 at 12:19:25 PM

I'd be more accepting of that if the associated trope page didn't also have several examples of people coming back from being turned to dust/ash/gravel/ice shards, DBZ already mentioned.


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