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Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35526: May 30th 2016 at 3:30:58 PM

Salem actually agree human have a change to fight her if they work togeder which is why she destroy their trust....but the thing here that trust is based on backroom deals, lie and what you can consider manipulation, not surprising Cinder just make a snowden on them.

Most of what Salem is targeting to divide humanity has nothing to do with the Brotherhood's secrets. She's targeting basic human behaviour itself. Basic human behaviour is also the problem with the Brotherhood revealing at least some of their secrets - they have the problem where revealing (at least some of) their secrets will play right into Salem's hands.

Most of what's going on with the division of humanity has nothing to do with back room deals or lying or manipulation - except where it's Salem and her people doing those things.

The secrets the Brotherhood are keeping are known to only a relative few people on Remnant, and Salem's plans have not split the Brotherhood. In fact, by the end of Volume 3, Ironwood and Qrow were actually beginning to work together better than at any other point previously; in terms of the Brotherhood specifically, Salem's plan was having the opposite effect (unity rather than division).

As to everyone else, given that they aren't involved in the Brotherhood's secret-keeping, they aren't being divided because of those. They're being divided because of natural human behaviour and Salem's ability to understand and exploit that behaviour.

Frankly, all the times that Ozpin cautioned Ironwood left me thinking that, once upon a time, Ozpin may have been more like Ironwood and has the benefit of (bitter) experience to temper his responses (experience that Ironwood does not yet have). I will not be surprised if Ozpin's focus on how humanity - when given too much knowledge - reacts with fear and panic, bringing upon themselves Grimm invasions in the process, is as a result of him making exactly that mistake at some point in the past.

I'm not going to judge what we've seen of Ozpin's decisions in the show to date until we actually the information we need to form a judgement.

Also in second opeing make clear this is not and accident:

"were we born to fight and die? sacrificed for one huge lie? are we heroes keeping peace? or are we weapons? pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory? "

Is clear that means Ozpin and whatever his plan is

Of course. But it's someone asking these questions because they don't know what the answer is. And, since it's not Ozpin's point-of-view, we don't know what his answers would be. Yet.

If he never wanted to commit Ruby to the fight, he'd never have taken her to his school, let alone taken her two years early. He'd have made sure she was as far away from the hunter life as possible, turned her away, and actively discouraged her from wanting to be one.

We already know from Salem's song that she fully intends to target Ruby. So, we have a couple of schools of thought. Is Ozpin recruiting a weapon by bringing Ruby in early (as in, it's all about what he can get out of her)? Is Ozpin trying to protect Ruby by bringing her in early (as in, he knows Salem wants her, so training her up gives her the ability to defend herself as much as possible against Salem)? Is he going to make her his trump card (as in, his entire plan depends on her)? Is he going to make her his last resort (as in, his plans are trying to avoid using her as much as possible but if worst comes to worst, she'll have to come into play)? Is it possible that he actually has several different reasons for his decision instead of just one?

Maybe he got Summer involved too early and too fast and he thinks that led to her early death (they did say Summer kept pushing herself on missions when even Taiyang slowed down) So he's taking a different route with Ruby so that by the time she learned just how important she was, she wouldn't let it define her.

This is actually what I've been thinking.

edited 30th May '16 3:39:46 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35527: May 30th 2016 at 4:02:48 PM

There's also the fact that Cinder's big reveal speech was full of lies. Ozpin isn't training his hunters to be psycho brutes that maim their defeated opponents, Yang and Pyrrha were tricked into doing that thanks to Emerald's illusions. Penny wasn't a secret killbot. She was geniunely a good girl and was made to save people. Atlas's army isn't evil, it's robots were hacked.

It's hard to argue Salem and Cinder have a point when their entire speech was full of lies and situations they created. They're just as deceptive, and could easily be shut down and confidence in Ozpin restored if someone hijacks the airwaves with a speech about evidence of their alliance with the Grimm and betrayal of their own race and proof that Emerald was tricking people.

WillDeRegio Since: Jan, 2015
#35528: May 30th 2016 at 7:38:07 PM

[up]All you have to do is sow the seeds of paranoia, and people's logic gets put on the back burner. It doesn't take much to start a Witch Hunt.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35529: May 30th 2016 at 8:27:24 PM

What if we analize Cinder speech? that would be better:

"This is not a tragedy. This was not an accident. This is what happens when you hand over your trust, your safety, your children, to men who claim to be our guardians, but are in reality nothing more than men. Our academies' headmasters wield more power than most armies, and one was audacious enough to control both. "

Here her intention is clear, to bring Ironwood and Ozpin down as not figure of leadership but men who comit folly, them it reveal a point: Headmaster are in charge of hunter who are little army who have more power than regular soldier or Atlas who control both

"They cling to this power in the name of peace, and yet, what do we have here? One nation's attempt at a synthetic army mercilessly torn apart by another's star pupil. What need would Atlas have for a soldier disguised as an innocent little girl? I don't think the Grimm can tell the difference"

Now while she ask a question in where she rigged the answer the point of Atlas stand: maybe Penny is not a "Killer robot" but Cinder didnt said that, instead goes and ask why a nation would create a machine that look like a human and have aura and every sci fi nerd here should rise their alarm at the implication, the fact Penny want to live in Vale should throw a clue.

"And what, I ask you, is Ozpin teaching his students? First, a dismemberment, now this? Huntsmen and Huntresses should carry themselves with honor and mercy, yet I have witnessed neither."

Now here is flaw explotation and is the truly part of her plan, Yang is hothead who rush into situation and Phyrra is stress, is clear She know that and use that for advantage, more than lie she is using flaw explotation at her favor.

"Perhaps Ozpin felt as though defeating Atlas in the tournament would help people forget his colossal failure to protect Vale when the Grimm invaded its streets. Or perhaps this was his message to the tyrannical dictator that has occupied an unsuspecting kingdom with armed forces"

"Perhaps Ozpin felt as though defeating Atlas in the tournament would help people forget his colossal failure to protect Vale when the Grimm invaded its streets. Or perhaps this was his message to the tyrannical dictator that has occupied an unsuspecting kingdom with armed forces"

Now here is when Cinder is good in speech, she used a fact(Ozpin failed to stop the breach of the Grimm in the city) to implie a false conclution and them send a digs against Atlas in not a subtle matter.

" Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue as to who is right and who is wrong, but I know that the existence of peace is fragile, and the leaders of our kingdoms conduct their business with iron gloves. As someone who hails from Mistral, I can assure you the situation there is equally undesirable."

Againt she state a fact(peace is fragile) to readire to a question she already know the answer(or is leading to the one she desire) now the situation in Mistral is really that bad as she said of is just a bait for throwing their people off, that remain to be see

"Our kingdoms are at the brink of war, yet we, the citizens, are left in the dark. So, I ask you, when the first shots are fired, who do you think you can trust? "

Now again she state half truth: the kindom are in bring of the war and in fact left in the dark, Ironwood moving their army and Opzin taking a young girl to fight she have not idea, the lie is that Cinder is "just" a citizen, but the implication of Salem and Ozpin knowing each other is that the shot have been fired LONG time ago and nobody know

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35530: May 30th 2016 at 8:46:08 PM

Again though, this is all stuff that's happening because she and Salem are making it so. The Kingdom's are only at the brink of war because of them. Everyone was getting along fine until they started stirring up trouble. Ironwood isn't trying a powerplay, and he and Ozpin are on the same side. Penny was made to have an aura to help fight the Grimm. Yang and Pyrrha were tricked into their actions, and only had the matches in the first place because Cinder has control of the computer.

It's a clever play and I see why the citizens would believe this(although why they'd risk oblivion with the Grimm over the hunters is kind of stupid), but they don't have any geniune points, it's all lies and deception and stuff they personally caused and framed others with. Ozpin and Ironwood didn't actually do anything wrong.

edited 30th May '16 8:46:54 PM by AJSthe2nd

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#35531: May 30th 2016 at 9:09:41 PM

[up] That we know of. There's no way they're going to actually turn out to be the good guys (Well-Intentioned Extremist isn't too implausible), but with how tight to its chest the show is keeping any details about the villains, I'm personally expecting a major twist in that sector of the plot.

edited 30th May '16 9:12:03 PM by CaptainCapsase

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35532: May 30th 2016 at 9:10:59 PM

"Again though, this is all stuff that's happening because she and Salem are making it so. The Kingdom's are only at the brink of war because of them."

Really? faunus discrimination? crime? creating a robot child for god-know-what? a WAR? Atlas usurping? this isnt avatar where "everything was in peace until the fire nation atack" Cinder(and by extention Salem) is using system flaw and cracks and her favour(after all is not surprising most of her forces are outcast in one way of another) and even if they are war, the cause and oponent and...A LOT are keping in the dark because the muggle can handle fear...yeah.

"Penny was made to have an aura to help fight the Grimm."

Them why she was smuggle into Vale? or look like a Little girl? as she said "I dont think the grimm can know the diferent"

"Yang and Pyrrha were tricked into their actions, and only had the matches in the first place because Cinder has control of the computer."

but Cinder know what kind of chararter they are: Yang is hothead and Phyrra is stress for what it happen

"why they'd risk oblivion with the Grimm over the hunters is kind of stupid"

Is not that, people will likey to know WHAT THE HELL IS HAPPEING, something Ironwood and Ozpin are keping people in the dark, the war is scale diferent and they know it, if you are not telling people that and yet requestion giving their life, them they are pawn for some weird and nebolus "greater good" that indeed take a level of arrogance

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#35533: May 30th 2016 at 9:17:56 PM

Why does she look like a little girl? Because you want your hyper intelligent killer robot to feel human, that's why. Otherwise, you just have an hyper intelligent killer robot that has no reason to sympathize with you and not go absolutely fucking Skynet on you.

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35534: May 30th 2016 at 9:25:40 PM

Yeah really. I mean it could have been a male robot, but would that be that much different. The point is she has to look human to feel human and have an aura. Otherwise she'd just be a drone.

Also what exactly is Atlas trying to upsurp? Ironwood brought his fleet to better protect Vale during the tournament, and he pushed to get security control because he wanted to protect Vale better, but he wasn't planning on taking control of the country and all indications were once the tournament ended he was gonna take his fleet and go home back to Atlas.

I know Ironwood looked suspicious initially and Atlas appeared to be an Evil Empire in the making, but that was a red herring and by all indictations Ironwood is really on Ozpin's side and not evil.

The only real civil problem are the Faunus issues, but as people have mentioned that's pretty overblown and only the White Fang are the violent ones, and they're only as successful as they are thanks to Cinder and Salem's support.

Which again goes back to the only reason there's any trouble of note is because of Cinder and Salem.

edited 30th May '16 9:26:39 PM by AJSthe2nd

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#35535: May 30th 2016 at 9:32:28 PM

Also, I bet Dr. Geppetto had a big say in the design process.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35536: May 30th 2016 at 9:35:47 PM

[up][up][up]having a robot that can question your order is ALREADY bad choice, hell Penny want to stay in Vale....how that would work?

[up][up]Im taking of Atlas who was 8 years before as the kindom of mantle before being fused into one single entity, i think that is the part of a "tyrant who have military ocupation" also Atlas is still shady, having Ironwood having good intention means nothing, specially by the fact that Ironwood hide penny existent from Ozpin

And wasnt she is a drone? I meant you dont build little robot girl for nothing and anyone would be uneasy to have what is probably machurian agent

Also faunus are being abused, is more fault to the show to you know...show that but is not "overblown" you are underestime what is happeing to said "everything is fine and bad thing happen for Cinder"

edited 30th May '16 9:39:57 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LatverianBadger Calamity is a housewife from gacha hell Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Calamity is a housewife
#35537: May 30th 2016 at 9:39:12 PM

(from a few pages ago)

I'd be down with Yang having a mechanic similar to Lucario's, the more hits she takes, the bigger her buffs.

Yang is a Masochist

Well, her Mother's name is Raven for a reason.

edited 30th May '16 9:41:00 PM by LatverianBadger

"Shake the dust." - Anis Mojgani
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#35538: May 31st 2016 at 6:42:35 AM

Ozpin,Glynda and Ironwood are probably already in top of the civilization
... so what? The Grimm want to literally exterminate humanity. Ozpin being "in top" of civilization puts him in a better position to try and stop it from being destroyed just like that ruined city.
I have a hard time faulting them for withholding information as to just how bad things are...because the Grimm attack people based on fear.
Exactly.
the Opzininati
[lol] But seriously, it does seem like he was planning on recruiting RWBY (and possibly JNPR) for it. You don't see him getting as chummy with CRDL.
Really? faunus discrimination? crime? creating a robot child for god-know-what? a WAR? Atlas usurping?
Crime doesn't send nations to war against each other. We've already seen that hunters are far more effective against Grimm than standard robots, so making a robot that can channel aura to fight them makes sense, and making her look human does not mean that she was designed for infiltration and spying (like Cinder implies). Faunus discrimination, while bad, is again not a reason for the nations to go to war against each other; if there was a nation that was all/majority faunus that might be the case. Atlas hasn't usurped anything, Ironwood showed up with the army because he feared another Grimm attack happening against the Vytal festival.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35539: May 31st 2016 at 7:54:57 AM

We already know from Salem's song that she fully intends to target Ruby. So, we have a couple of schools of thought. Is Ozpin recruiting a weapon by bringing Ruby in early (as in, it's all about what he can get out of her)? Is Ozpin trying to protect Ruby by bringing her in early (as in, he knows Salem wants her, so training her up gives her the ability to defend herself as much as possible against Salem)?

Here's a theory someone suggested. Salem wants Ruby as part of her crew, a false Maiden like Cinder full of hate towards the world and hunters and Ozpin and ready to burn it all down. She was ready to take her in as a child expecting Summer's death to tear her family apart Taiyang and Yang to be driven to despair and neglect her, Qrow to break off, and Ruby would grow up alone and unloved bitter at the thought of the Hunter system destroying her family and childhood and hating Ozpin for sending her mother to her death.

Only that didn't happen. Yang got her head on straight and pulled their family back together, and Ruby only idolized the Hunters. So Salem bided her time, deciding she could wait until she was older. Ruby would be in Signal and Yang would be at Beacon when Cinder took it down. Yang would die there, Taiyang would probably break down completely, and Ruby would again be faced with a world and Hunter system that tore her family apart, this time both her sister and mother giving their lives for Ozpin. And then Salem figures she hate him and the world and be ready to be recruited to destroy it.

So what does Ozpin do. He recruits her early, gets her into Beacon and gives her a personal stake in the fight. Now when Cinder hits Beacon she'll be in the line of fire herself, the people dying will be friends of hers and she'd have a happy life there was torn away. As a result Ruby would hate Salem instead, and probably will never ever see her way and join her because she was a first hand victim of her actions.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35540: May 31st 2016 at 12:13:37 PM

"... so what? The Grimm want to literally exterminate humanity. Ozpin being "in top" of civilization puts him in a better position to try and stop it from being destroyed just like that ruined city. "

Because they control how the war play out, and as far the public know the grimm are just weird and dark thing that apear of out nowhere but are dumb, now we know they are more inteligent they apear to be and have a conection with Opzin in the form of Salem

" it does seem like he was planning on recruiting RWBY (and possibly JNPR) for it. You don't see him getting as chummy with CRDL."

not at all, it fact he see to just trust in Phyrra for his objective(the maiden power)

", so making a robot that can channel aura to fight them makes sense, and making her look human does not mean that she was designed for infiltration and spying (like Cinder implies)"

And for what? because is cute? because Atlas is full of loli? because gepeto just read astroboy and decide to do is own? was Cinder implies, making look human have no beenfict in fighting grimm so the only you can use it....is other humans

" Faunus discrimination, while bad, is again not a reason for the nations to go to war against each other; if there was a nation that was all/majority faunus that might be the case. Atlas hasn't usurped anything, Ironwood showed up with the army because he feared another Grimm attack happening against the Vytal festival. "

you miss my point, the system have flaw and Salem are useing it, the peace is fragile and not just because of the grimm but because they dont trust that well each other, it seen many here and making a avatar parallel where all kindom get goody buddy until Salem come along

Also when I said uprising I refer to the kindom of mantle that exist before atlas academy take other and fused everything, meaing the academy no only control the hunters but regular soldier and have robots..yeah

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#35541: May 31st 2016 at 12:42:50 PM

Ozlluminati is the generally accepted term.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35542: May 31st 2016 at 1:21:13 PM

The peace wasn't fragile at all though until that Tournament. The kingdoms all got along, had been doing so for decades actually. Mantle and Atlas's internal strife is one country's internal thing, and most seem happy with the arrangement.

Maybe the people of Remnant don't take much to turn on one another and they went from peace to warlike with just one incident. Maybe that's a point Cinder will try to make to Ruby as to why the riff raff aren't worth fighting for.

But the talk that war was inevitable and all Cinder did was give it a tiny push is wrong. They were completely at peace and things would have been fine had she not ruined that Festival.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35543: May 31st 2016 at 2:17:17 PM

@unknowing: Yes, Cinder's speech clearly targets Ozpin and Ironwood while making herself out to be a concerned, ordinary citizen who's stumbled onto to something that's way above her head except for the news that peace in the world is under threat. The speech targets Vale, Atlas and Mistral, but makes no reference to Vacuo. Why? That's suspicious. She also strongly implies that Ironwood chose to be both a headmaster and general, but we don't know if it's true, especially since Atlas has integrated its government, military and academy. Freedom of hunters versus soldiers? Who knows. Does Vale even have soldiers? Its government can certainly sack Ozpin. Meanwhile, Atlas is militarising its hunters (which other kingdoms aren't happy about).

You're right, Cinder didn't say 'killer robot' or that Penny is a nefarious plot by humans against other humans, but she wasn't subtle in going right there. She openly described Penny as a soldier diguised as an innocent girl and that disguise wouldn't be relevant for Grimm. Either way, one of the plain purposes of her speech was to make people think Ozpin and Atlas hate each other. Her entire speech is a mixture of outright lies, half-truths, lying by omission and spin-doctoring. There seems to be very few genuine truths within the speech. However, a good lie is mostly truth anyway, so even having a little truth mixed in would make the lying much more powerful.

About faunus discrimination. Why wouldn't Salem be fanning the flames of human/faunus war? Why bother dividing just humanity when faunus need dealing with, too? Why did Cinder insist on White Fang involvement if not to fan human/faunus tensions? Both Atlas and White Fang can be blamed for what happened to Vale, especially if video feed picks up the White Fang ships ferrying in the Grimm (the White Fang even wear Grimm-allusion masks). I don't believe Salem created the tensions in the first place, but triggering human/faunus wars and preventing peace initiatives from succeeding? I think that would very much be part of her plan. Indeed, the faunus themselves are divided between those who support White Fang and those who object. Was she behind the White Fang coup? I bet she was involved somewhere.

I bet she was involved in starting the war that ended eighty years ago, too.

Why does Penny look human? Maybe the plan is to save the world without the humans learning too many truths, and Ironwood doesn't want to risk more human lives than he has to - so a human-looking robot with Aura is the key to saving the world, preventing any human deaths in the process. Whatever the reason actually is, this is Ironwood's idea. Ozpin was not involved which is why Ironwood panicked about how Ozpin would react to the reveal. He was busy obsessing over Ozpin's reaction to a human-looking robot while Ozpin was more interested in saving the city.

My guess is that Ozpin wouldn't have been in favour of a human-looking robot precisely because of the negative reaction that could generate in people. Plus it begs the question of whether or not the robot has any rights to personhood. Plus it begs the question of where the hell the Aura came from and how it could become established on a robot.

What we know about Penny is that she is meant to save the world. We don't know what that means but I'm willing to bet that's got more to do with fighting against Salem than other human kingdoms.

edited 31st May '16 2:20:35 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#35544: May 31st 2016 at 4:21:21 PM

I think Penny was made to look human to be a Replacement Goldfish.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#35545: May 31st 2016 at 4:37:31 PM

Atlas does seem to want their robots to be more human like in general considering the new models while definitely look like robots have a human shape. They could be out to make their army more approachable to the average citizen.

Penny is probably designed based on a living person and her appearance allows them to test their project in the tournament. It raises less questions if she has a very human like appearance.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35546: May 31st 2016 at 5:19:46 PM

[up][up] That's been my theory as well. I'm betting that a range of people have different ideas on how to use her, but her 'father' originally created her for personal reasons. Ironwood jumped on the band wagon because he could see a use for her to save the world and the government might have their own private ideas.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#35547: May 31st 2016 at 6:09:50 PM

Random rambling.

God, I hope that Mercury never does a Heel–Face Turn. I love him the way he is now: being a total jerkass and having a blast with it.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#35548: May 31st 2016 at 6:12:15 PM

Merc's chances of a Heel–Face Turn are slim-to-none. Emerald is way more likely to switch sides.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#35549: May 31st 2016 at 6:22:04 PM

Thank God.

As for Emerald, eh, I don't care much about her. She could just get written out of the story and I wouldn't even notice. evil grin

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35550: May 31st 2016 at 6:22:09 PM

[up][up]Which is probably why she's considered "meh" villain...it's the eyes.

You can tell by the eyes.

edited 31st May '16 6:22:42 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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