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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35501: May 29th 2016 at 9:56:38 PM

[up]they are top in the sense they are VERY imporant players, Ironwood is leader of Atlas military forces and Ozpin is headmaster which is responsable of training of hunter, they dont control sociaty indeed but play a importan role of it and they are conect in a secret sociaty....

And Cinder just create chaos of fear already there, because not matter how you saw it, Atlas did intervine in festival and create robot that look like people and Ozpin reclute a student from Mystral for a super secret mision that coudnt tell to anybody.

Again they are not evil but they are not totally good people, and atoner is atoner for something and even them, is clear but Ironwood and Ozpin is withholding information, not surprise Cinder manage to do that amout of damage

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35502: May 29th 2016 at 10:13:01 PM

See I have a hard time faulting them for withholding information as to just how bad things are...because the Grimm attack people based on fear. If the stuff about Salem went public, then people would freak out and the Grimm would swarm the cities. Thus they withold it not out of malice or to get an edge up on everyone, but because it really is better for everyone if they don't know about it.

There really isn't a better, or any other option yet really.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35503: May 30th 2016 at 7:22:26 AM

It's one thing in stories that seems to really upset some readers/audience members - this idea that the people in charge are hiding things from the population, or people further down the pecking order.

This is normal. There's always a chain of knowledge and secrecy, where people have to be authorised before they can know the information. This in one aspect of storytelling that is completely true to real life, yet it really upsets some people.

It's not just this show - I've seen the reaction in several different fandoms where governments, or people in charge of certain groups are having to hide secrets from everyone else - and it's often the people in charge of the protagonists (Ie, not villainous characters) who get the biggest complaints from the audience.

I'm quite sure Ozpin has some dark skeletons in his closet and some of his secrets will relate to that, but having a job where he has to keep certain secrets from others (even othr huntsmen) isn't something that bothers me. It makes sense. Even if he didn't have skeletons in his closet, he'd still have to be keeping secrets from others.

edited 30th May '16 7:28:01 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#35504: May 30th 2016 at 8:29:18 AM

The problem is, what happens when people like Ruby start digging into his secrets, on purpose or otherwise?

Cross (Don’t ask)
#35505: May 30th 2016 at 8:59:12 AM

He talks to them and, depending on the person, let's them join the Opzininati?

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35506: May 30th 2016 at 9:45:16 AM

Depends on the person. I mean Ruby was probably always a shoe in. He was clearly just waiting for her to awaken her power and maybe train a few more years.

If Ruby complains to him he'd just say "I always intended for you to be one of us and to tell you everything. I merely wanted you to enjoy your childhood in peace for a few more years until you were ready for the burden. I didn't tell you about your eye power because you needed to develop the desire to help people before you learned of it so you'd see it as a tool to do that and not feel burdened to do so because of your power."

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35507: May 30th 2016 at 10:30:15 AM

Like a smooth criminal.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#35509: May 30th 2016 at 10:40:43 AM

Let's see

  • Never on screen at the same time
  • Ozpin conveniently appears, by himself, after Roman is seemingly eaten whole
  • Both fight with a cane
  • Ozpin mysteriously disappears from a fight he was in no way losing

Seems legit.

edited 30th May '16 10:41:18 AM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35510: May 30th 2016 at 10:49:44 AM

"You want to be a hero? Then play the part like every other huntsman in history - and die! Meanwhile, I'll do what I always do! Cheat, steal, and survive-!"

What a hypocrite.

Or maybe its multiple personality disorder.

I mean, Ozpin did:

  • Cheat, or at least agree to cheat the cycle of the Maidens using Ironwood's tech.
  • Steal - well, Ozpin had his authority stolen.
  • Survive - he might be immortal if he's the Old Man from the story.

edited 30th May '16 11:52:19 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#35511: May 30th 2016 at 11:05:06 AM

Also, Roman is based on Alex from Clockwork Orange.

Gears are a prominent symbol of Ozpin's.

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35512: May 30th 2016 at 11:18:55 AM

I mean it could be he was just some kind of alternate disguise/projection Ozpin made to be the designated beginner villain Ruby would have to fight to introduce her to the darker world and as a spy on Salem's team. He was hoping Ruby would rise to the challenge and "kill" Roman after that speech but once the Grimm ate him decided to just cut his losses and let everyone think Roman died there.

He did approve of her frequently going after him.

But that's probably getting too complicated.

edited 30th May '16 11:19:22 AM by AJSthe2nd

UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#35513: May 30th 2016 at 11:25:43 AM

How didn't we see this before?

Glynda just so happened to be there to protect Ruby the night she fought Roman? The sudden early entrance into Beacon just after it, as if it was all planned? Making her the leader, a key part in their success against Roman in the Paladin? Roman somehow magically knowing how to pilot it when he's probably never seen it before?

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#35514: May 30th 2016 at 11:39:44 AM

-Torchwick in Paladin-

"I wonder what this button does..."

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#35515: May 30th 2016 at 11:41:45 AM

So he's Dee Dee now?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
UndyingPhoenix Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#35516: May 30th 2016 at 12:09:29 PM

Also, the way that Roman acted towards Ruby was actually probably beneficial to Ozpin's plans to test Ruby. Attempt to see if she would remain optimistic despite what the world looks like, and when she's beaten down.

Makes you wonder what would have happened if the fight never occurred at all. Would Ruby still have awoken her Silver Eyes at seeing Pyrrha die if she hadn't fought Roman?

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35517: May 30th 2016 at 1:27:01 PM

"This is normal. There's always a chain of knowledge and secrecy, where people have to be authorised before they can know the information. This in one aspect of storytelling that is completely true to real life, yet it really upsets some people. "

because this is beyond "the top dog want this to be done so is done" this is people having agenda and using other as pawns in their secretism, if you want a real life example we have the CIA who used "we fight for the greater good" as blank check to do whatever Dick-move they want, is one think kept secret but "by the way Ruby, your uncle, Winter superior, Glynda and me play iluminati every saturday, which was part of why Phyrra die, have fun!"

In short, Ruby and all other are playing a war that is bigger they new in something he have part of it, that i not just some skeleton in closet but a whole greyard

"Also, Roman is based on Alex from Clockwork Orange. "

You know you would expect Roman to have something orange with him, just to hammer the point, also I think he is just a thief and is NEO the one with Alexdelarge personality(like love for ultraviolence) deer let hope they made a shout out soon

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
GeekCodeRed Since: Sep, 2010
#35518: May 30th 2016 at 1:31:35 PM

Torchwick might take cues from Alex De Large, but he's also based on Lampwick/Candlewick from Pinocchio.

You know, the guy who makes an ass of himself.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35519: May 30th 2016 at 1:56:17 PM

[up]Meh, I saw clockwork orange few weeks ago and I dont see much of Alex in Roman, Alex was above all think a mad artist of violence(admiring gang beating up as profesional work, saying he would lash Jesus in latest roman fashon) and wicked culture as whole, Roman while stilysh since to be more pragmatic and concern with survive.

Hell, Neo have more of Alex than Roman, that is saying something

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35520: May 30th 2016 at 2:53:46 PM

The problem is, what happens when people like Ruby start digging into his secrets, on purpose or otherwise?

What usually happens is that the protagonists find out in the worst possible way, hearing the worst possible version, react with horror and a sense of betrayal, and by the story's end have come to realise the truth is much more complicated, the person concerned is much more nuanced and they've either completely made up, or at least acknowledged that the person has done bad things but is now someone they can respect.

Then they don't take the mentor-figure or villain's options and Take a Third Option instead.

Depends on the person. I mean Ruby was probably always a shoe in. He was clearly just waiting for her to awaken her power and maybe train a few more years.

I think there's something else going on. People (Ironwood, for example) seem to think he's training the kids for war, and he doesn't seem to be openly refuting that belief. However, once Ironwood had left the room, Ozpin stated he was hoping the kids don't have to fight a war at all.

Meanwhile, Salem (judging by her song) seems to think Ozpin actually doesn't want to use Ruby, which is why she is determined to make sure Ruby gets used. According to her song, the path to breaking Ozpin lies with getting Ruby involved and destroying her faith and hope. The creators have told us several times that Ruby's optimism is very important to her character, and the Image Song suggests Salem thinks Ruby's optimism is very important to Ozpin, too.

However, if Salem thinks Ozpin is trying to avoid using Ruby, and Ozpin won't admit to Ironwood's face that he's trying to prevent the kids from fighting a war at all, then Ozpin's plan doesn't seem to be quite as straight-forward as the fandom's been speculating.

edited 30th May '16 2:59:43 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35521: May 30th 2016 at 2:59:02 PM

You make that type of plot sound so simple.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#35522: May 30th 2016 at 3:00:11 PM

[up] Common. That's not the same thing as simple.

because this is beyond "the top dog want this to be done so is done" this is people having agenda and using other as pawns in their secretism, if you want a real life example we have the CIA who used "we fight for the greater good" as blank check to do whatever Dick-move they want, is one think kept secret but "by the way Ruby, your uncle, Winter superior, Glynda and me play iluminati every saturday, which was part of why Phyrra die, have fun!"

You have inserted motive into my post that didn't exist. I never claimed motive for anyone - either characters or real life, and certainly not good or bad. I just said it's normal. And it is. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about good motives or bad or neutral, or just something so muddy or complicated that it cannot be defined along storybook alignments. It all happens in real life. Often.

I have a different view of why Pyrrha died to you. I don't think she died because of the Maiden power. I think she died because Ozpin's last words to her was to ensure the tower did not fall. Now, he told her to get help to ensure the tower did not fall. However, she decided that help wouldn't arrive in time and that she was going to address the issue while Jaune got help.

There's actually some good rationale this kind of position. She's better at fighting than Jaune and Jaune had Glynda's contact details so could find Glynda faster than Pyrrha could. If they were forced to split to maximise the chances of the tower not falling, that would be the decision to make - and that was the decision to make.

We can see from Ruby's actions that she'd make the same kind of decision as Pyrrha, and that's without knowing anything about the Maidens. Even if that kind of thing had been on Pyrrha's mind (and I wouldn't be surprised if it was), I don't think knowledge of the Maidens makes any difference in the decision she made at that moment. She made that decision because she's Pyrrha Nikos, not because she was promised a power she was taking responsibility for.

What her knowledge of the Maidens might have influenced was her determination to get Jaune away from the area because she had a better understanding that the threat level was unusual than she otherwise would have. However, it still would have made sense to send Jaune packing because of his lower skill level and the fact he had Glynda's contact details.

edited 30th May '16 3:15:42 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35523: May 30th 2016 at 3:06:39 PM

I know it's common, too common in my opinion.

I meant the way you described it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#35524: May 30th 2016 at 3:10:45 PM

Ozpin since to have a hope spot for Ruby sometimes but other he is quite honest in telling her other people are going to die.

Salem actually agree human have a change to fight her if they work togeder which is why she destroy their trust....but the thing here that trust is based on backroom deals, lie and what you can consider manipulation, not surprising Cinder just make a snowden on them.

Also in second opeing make clear this is not and accident:

"were we born to fight and die? sacrificed for one huge lie? are we heroes keeping peace? or are we weapons? pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory? "

Is clear that means Ozpin and whatever his plan is

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#35525: May 30th 2016 at 3:27:55 PM

If he never wanted to commit Ruby to the fight, he'd never have taken her to his school, let alone taken her two years early. He'd have made sure she was as far away from the hunter life as possible, turned her away, and actively discouraged her from wanting to be one. And every hunter is effectively a piece in the fight, whether they know it or not. By supporting her in this goal he's tossing her into the fight.

No he clearly has plans for Ruby. I think he just didn't want to commit her to the fight for quite a while, until she has plenty of time to grow and develop and get stronger, and develop a support network. Maybe he got Summer involved too early and too fast and he thinks that led to her early death (they did say Summer kept pushing herself on missions when even Taiyang slowed down) So he's taking a different route with Ruby so that by the time she learned just how important she was, she wouldn't let it define her.


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