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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32126: Apr 13th 2016 at 8:26:41 PM

They'll want the skills, but not everyone will want the stress of maintaining a reputation or even the fame. Those things get to people after a while and it eventually will break.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#32127: Apr 13th 2016 at 8:30:32 PM

[up]Maybe but we dont see that in Phyrra, aside of being sad for not having many friends she see just fine, also neither Nora or Ren have many issue with it.....in short the whole thing look like a justification of why she like Jaunce more than anything else.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32128: Apr 13th 2016 at 8:37:53 PM

That's why I said it would've been better to show that side of Gladiator. It's the more interesting side to focus on...and just as believable.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#32129: Apr 13th 2016 at 8:43:27 PM

[up]Is a problem of the anime roots the show have, the writer and monty said they will make the chararter more complex, but so far it have been pretty meh in that regard, let see

-Ruby is quirky girl to.....the quirky girl who barely apears

-Weiss have more complexity of the four right now, with her doubt about her father and her sister so that is progress

-Yang is....weird, the show drop the "hard party girl" right for the start and she become team mon right away, but next volume give something

-Blake pass from loner with a dark past to.....being just uselss

our team lady and gentlemen

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#32130: Apr 13th 2016 at 9:40:19 PM

Someone on 4chan had an interesting point. That Pyrrha turns to "Dust" in a similar way that Yang's arm broke into particles and blew away when Adam chopped it off with his supposedly dust sword, and suggests that people in Remnant turn to Dust when they die, or at least are killed by magic/dust.

And Cinder didn't just heat her up so much she burned to ash (which bringing physics IRL in should be impossible without so much heat Cinder would never ever lose if she had that much power).

Interesting. Though it still means Pyrrha's pretty dead though.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#32131: Apr 13th 2016 at 9:46:56 PM

[up] I don't thing Yang's arm turned to dust, the wound just "bled" gold instead of well, you know, blood.

AJSthe2nd Since: Jan, 2015
#32132: Apr 13th 2016 at 9:50:39 PM

Yeah apparantly he was just remembering the episode wrong.

Nevermind then.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#32133: Apr 13th 2016 at 9:55:29 PM

Incidentally, when the heroes inevitably return to Beacon, I wonder if Ruby will (perhaps quite literally) stumble upon a dedicated, skeletal arm wearing a rusted shotgun gauntlet. Because if we're going dark, we might as well have some black humor. I

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#32134: Apr 13th 2016 at 10:37:07 PM

Anyway, what do you mean when you say they didn't follow through on Pyrrha's character arc?
Basically what I said about it here. And, uh... jeez, that really is an enormous post. Eh, I'll just quote the relevant part. I'm editing some bits to take into account discussion in later posts.

Pyrrha isn't even allowed to make the choice [to accept Fall's power or not]. The choice is forced on her by events — she has to accept Fall's power because they're under attack. And then even that forced non-choice is taken from her — Cinder shows up and takes the power instead of Pyrrha receiving it. Then Pyrrha dies, so she doesn't even get any character development out of it. She doesn't learn anything from the experience or have to live with the consequences.

The whole subplot does nothing but remove Pyrrha's agency as a character. She doesn't do anything, things simply happen to her. She's paralyzed with indecision, then forced by events, then killed. She starts as a confident, competent huntress-in-training at the start of the season, but by the end of it she's reduced to just being a catalyst for Ruby to activate her Deus ex Machina. They abandoned her characterization as an interesting exploration of The Ace with serious Lonely at the Top issues and instead fed her to The Plot Reaper in a way that was contrived and unsatisfying.

What did the subplot add to Pyrrha as a character? She never really questioned her willingness to risk herself to protect the world. The only thing that seemed to be holding her back was the possibility of a relationship with Jaune. But she never actually decides — is it okay to be just a tiny bit selfish and want something for herself, instead of giving everything up for the good of others? Or does she have to regretfully let go of her personal feeling if that's what's necessary to do the most good for the most people? But then they bail on the question, bail on making her live with the consequences of her choice (or lack thereof), and bail on the character entirely. Hell, even if they wanted to kill her off, they could have had her accept the power, use it to fight Cinder, and lose. The plot would have ultimately ended up in the exact same place, but it would have been a much more satisfying end to Pyrrha's character arc.

tldr, they set up a big character arc for Pyrrha, but then kill Pyrrha and leave all those plot threads hanging rather than resolving them in a satisfactory manner — that is, one that leads to Pyrrha's growth as a character.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#32135: Apr 13th 2016 at 10:44:45 PM

Also, I'd note that turning shit to dust and then putting it back together, albeit most of the time in a different shape, is one of Cinder's shticks and Pyrhha turning to fucking dust was just weird as shit.

Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#32136: Apr 13th 2016 at 11:05:11 PM

I disagree with the idea that she really needed a character arc at the end. Quoting for comparison:

What did the subplot add to Pyrrha as a character? She never really questioned her willingness to risk herself to protect the world.

She didn't need to. That wasn't an important aspect of her character, since all hunters when on duty are risking themselves to protect the world. If you mean possibly taking in Amber's aura, she questions that blatantly when talking with Jaune before the fight with Penny.

The only thing that seemed to be holding her back was the possibility of a relationship with Jaune. But she never actually decides — is it okay to be just a tiny bit selfish and want something for herself, instead of giving everything up for the good of others? Or does she have to regretfully let go of her personal feeling if that's what's necessary to do the most good for the most people?

When she decides to send Jaune off in the rocket locker and go to fight Cinder, that is when she makes all of these decisions. She wants to leave with Jaune, possibly quite desperately judging from how she kissed him and apologized before sending him off in the locker, but she decides that, if no one else is able to stand up to Cinder, then she should. Even if Ozpin couldn't handle her, someone must stop Cinder's plot so that peace can eventually return, and Pyrrha decides she ought to do it.

But then they bail on the question, bail on making her live with the consequences of her choice (or lack thereof), and bail on the character entirely. Hell, even if they wanted to kill her off, they could have had her accept the power, use it to fight Cinder, and lose. The plot would have ultimately ended up in the exact same place, but it would have been a much more satisfying end to Pyrrha's character arc.

Pyrrha did accept the power. That Cinder stole it is entirely separate from the choice Pyrrha made to accept it, and a different situation to critcize altogether. And they didn't bail on the questions as I mentioned above, and they didn't bail on the consequences of her choice because the consequences of choosing to be a hero in the face of an insurmountable opponent is usually death. Not everyone gets to live with the consequences of their actions.

And they didn't bail on the character entirely either. Pyrrha has always been the heroic elite that helps others and that others rely on. Whether it was when she was scouted by Weiss all the way in episode two, or when she was the only one who recognized Jaune's helplessness and sought to save him, or when she decided to help train Jaune despite him getting into Beacon on fraudulent grounds, or when she steamrolls team Cardin alone due to her sheer skill, or when she shows disappointment at Mercury bowing out of their fight, or when Cinder deems her worthy of note, or when even Ozpin himself deems her worthy of inheriting the powers of a maiden, and so on. Believing it is her destiny to stay and fight a seemingly insurmountable foe to save the society and people she loves is absolutely in character for her, and is in my opinion a wonderful final demonstration of those traits.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#32137: Apr 13th 2016 at 11:12:35 PM

[up][up]It seen that is her semblence, it tie with the whole cindrella thing going on with her, it look like her arrow are make of ash

[down][up][up]Not, her final decision was there, face Cinder alone and make time for everyone and run and let the tower fall, that as the destiny of her Arc, inmorality in single moment of run away and throw everything you belive, have Cinder murder Phyrra after obtaning her power then yes I will agree with you.

Also, you a misunderstanding the things a bit, Phyrra been lonly was to be close to Jaune who didnt want to aproach her, here the issue is not that, is that Ozpin and the rest reveal to be something else and demand something far greater to her, she even doubt in some moment but Cinder steal that, now she have a option, try to stop cinder or letting her get away with it

that is why your situation(where Phyrra got the power and lose anyway) means nothing, because Cinder will get the power anyway and if she didnt them the hole plan of Cindr will be for nothing, runing any change for the villian to actually be menacing

edited 13th Apr '16 11:15:41 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#32138: Apr 14th 2016 at 5:04:01 AM

Miles Luna is watching us and laughing at our naivness

wild mass guessSDC will become an antagonist seperate from Salem's lot

edited 14th Apr '16 6:33:38 AM by DarthSion

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#32139: Apr 14th 2016 at 7:34:09 AM

When she decides to send Jaune off in the rocket locker and go to fight Cinder, that is when she makes all of these decisions.
In my view, she didn't make those decisions, she had them forced on her by events. "Will you sacrifice everything and volunteer to take the power, or let someone else do it?" is a very different question than "someone needs to take the power right now or else the bad guy will get it, and you're the only one who can — will you do it?". Pyrrha never answered the first question, only the second one.

Believing it is her destiny to stay and fight a seemingly insurmountable foe to save the society and people she loves is absolutely in character for her, and is in my opinion a wonderful final demonstration of those traits.
The problem is that fighting Cinder was a stupid decision that accomplished nothing except to get Pyrrha killed. She didn't defeat Cinder. She didn't prevent Cinder from trashing the communications tower. She didn't protect anyone, she didn't save anything, and she knew (or at least should have known) that that's exactly what was going to happen before she decided to fight Cinder.

Pyrrha was never portrayed as a devil-may-care "never tell me the odds!" wins-through-sheer-determined-stubbornness sort of person. She always had a calm and rational approach to combat, and had a realistic idea of her strengths and weaknesses. Someone like Yang (who gets angry) or Ruby (who is somewhat naive and overenthusiastic) or even Weiss (who can be arrogant and let her pride run away from her) I could see deciding to take on Cinder in the right circumstances. But Pyrrha doing it — when she knew she was no match and that confronting her wouldn't accomplish anything — felt out of character. Fighting Cinder to delay her and keep her from interfering elsewhere? Sure. Launching a suicidal assault to distract Cinder while her friends or innocent civilians escaped? Absolutely. But in those cases, she accomplishes something even if she dies. She helps the mission to succeed by keeping Cinder busy, or sacrifices herself to save others.

Instead, she attacks Cinder knowing that she has no chance, and knowing that if she fails (which she will) then she'll have died for nothing. She basically commits suicide, which is not in character for her at all. This is the character who was struggling with the question of whether or not to risk her life note  when it wasn't absolutely necessary for her to do it note . Then she decides to throw herself into a suicidal fight which benefits no one and accomplishes nothing? I don't buy it.

The only explanation I can think of that makes sense at all is that she was so overcome with guilt over failing to accept Fall's power earlier and thus keeping Cinder from getting it that she decided she had to make up for it (by defeating Cinder) or die trying, despite knowing that it was going to be "die trying". Which is still incredibly stupid on Pyrrha's part and unsatisfying on the writer's part, but at least I can see it as being in character for Pyrrha. If she had one flaw, it was taking too much responsibility on herself.

The whole situation felt like the writers had decided to kill Pyrrha and had to work backwards for how to fit it into the plot, rather than Pyrrha's death being a natural conclusion of her established characterization and the situation she was in.

edited 14th Apr '16 7:42:02 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#32140: Apr 14th 2016 at 7:44:39 AM

She didn't prevent Cinder from trashing the communications tower.

Like I said before, evidence points towards Cinder not having been able to accomplish what she wanted to with the Tower thanks to Ruby and Pyrrha. I doubt Ozpin was that insistent that the tower must not fall because it was a communications hub..

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#32141: Apr 14th 2016 at 7:51:57 AM

Eh, I don't see it. Remember that destroying the comm tower doesn't just cut Vale out of the loop, it shuts down all communication between any of the kingdoms. They mentioned that in the World of Remnant video about the Cross Continental Communication Transmit System. If you want to kill all humans, or even just do something bad on a large enough scale that the kingdoms would unite against you to stop it, then keeping them from talking to each other is a fantastic first step.

Besides, if shutting down the CCCT wasn't the point of attacking the tower, then what was? There was nothing else important up there. I took Ozpin's comment on "the tower must not fall" to mean "the CCCT must not be taken offline".

If I actually thought Cinder had failed in some way, I wouldn't be nearly so annoyed at the whole thing.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#32142: Apr 14th 2016 at 8:05:29 AM

Well she failed to take all of the city (I still think at least a third of the city fell though

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
BlackSunNocturne Since: Aug, 2013
#32143: Apr 14th 2016 at 9:09:09 AM

Actually, the World of Remnant implied, not confirmed, that if one CCCT went down, they all did.

Also: Ozpin's not one to mince words. If he meant "The CCCT must not be taken offline" he would have said that, instead he said "The tower must not fall" which implied something else was important about it, not just the CCCT.

DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#32144: Apr 14th 2016 at 9:24:15 AM

wild mass guessthe tower was a TARDIS

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#32145: Apr 14th 2016 at 9:44:23 AM

Actually, the World of Remnant implied, not confirmed, that if one CCCT went down, they all did.
No, they're quite explicit about it. Ozpin (who narrates that one) even mentions that he finds the limitation poetic. If one wishes to speak, then they must defend the voice of the others as well — because if one voice is silenced, then all of them are. Something like that, I don't remember his exact words.

Also: Ozpin's not one to mince words. If he meant "The CCCT must not be taken offline" he would have said that, instead he said "The tower must not fall" which implied something else was important about it, not just the CCCT.
That honestly seems like WMG territory to me. There's nothing to suggest that there was anything else important in the tower, and the fact that Ozpin said "the tower" instead of "the CCCT transmitter" doesn't really strike me as reasonable evidence to the contrary.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#32146: Apr 14th 2016 at 9:48:49 AM

I hope there's a subp;ot where CFVY resets the tower

The plot I'm most concerned about is Yang's: angst to little and it's not believable angst to much and it gets tedious

edited 14th Apr '16 10:31:36 AM by DarthSion

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#32147: Apr 14th 2016 at 10:43:34 AM

Instead, she attacks Cinder knowing that she has no chance, and knowing that if she fails (which she will) then she'll have died for nothing. She basically commits suicide, which is not in character for her at all. This is the character who was struggling with the question of whether or not to risk her life note when it wasn't absolutely necessary for her to do it note if she said no, then Ozpin & co would find someone else to take the power eventually, after all. Then she decides to throw herself into a suicidal fight which benefits no one and accomplishes nothing? I don't buy it.

Wait.I though it was established that she buying time until help came? Whether or not the CCT is the tower.Ozpin made a seem like it was important.

So when Ozpin fell.Pyrrha went back to delay.And sent Jaune away so that he wouldn't follow her.Doesn't really seem OOC even if she wasn't sure that hep was coming.

Also can Ruby's power be called a Dexus ex Mahinca if it didn't really solve anything?

edited 14th Apr '16 10:56:07 AM by DeanCole

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32148: Apr 14th 2016 at 10:55:22 AM

It's completely fine to just run away from the villain if you know you can't win...but that's only if you have no way to reliably receive back-up.

Noble pride doesn't allow a gladiator like Gladiator to run away just because the villain has new powers that make it stronger.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#32149: Apr 14th 2016 at 12:40:56 PM

"Launching a suicidal assault to distract Cinder while her friends or innocent civilians escaped? Absolutely. But in those cases, she accomplishes something even if she dies. She helps the mission to succeed by keeping Cinder busy, or sacrifices herself to save others. "

In this case the only thing she have is a hope she could stop Cinder or make time for other to come, the only thing them is letting her walk away with the power she fail, facing a enemy bigger than herself for the sake of other, that is her destiny

Also, where is this "losing yourself" thing coming from? Cinder is the same and seen just fine, unless that coment of a hunger implies something wrong with the maiden powers, but that is WMG

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#32150: Apr 14th 2016 at 12:49:20 PM

I always thought the losing yourself thing was a bull theory

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra

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