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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31976: Apr 13th 2016 at 11:55:50 AM

ONE OUT OF THREE goals completed is not a "success" in any sense.
Their plan only seemed to have two real main objectives: get the rest of Fall's power, and destroy the communication tower. Both of these things were accomplished. We don't see or hear about any concerted effort to actually kill civilians and wipe out the city; those attacks seem to be intended as distractions in order to keep anyone from organizing a coherent defence of the tower. The train from Mountain Glenn was a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself — that was intended to add to the chaos of the grimm attack by providing another point of entry (and the fact that the attack on the tower ultimately succeeded despite the train part of it being triggered early due to the actions of the protagonists is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say that nothing the protagonists do actually matters in the end).

On an unrelated note: how the hell did Cinder even figure out where the hell Ozpin was keeping Fall, anyway?

Also the Silver eyes thing wasn't a Deus ex Machina, it was VERY much a Chekov's Gun. A slow-burning one, but still.
I'll give you that it wasn't an Ass Pull, as the silver eyes thing seems to indicate that it was planned from the start. But it's still very much a Deus ex Machina — the "foreshadowing" involved was a single cryptic line from the first episode, which could have meant anything. That's not really enough to establish a Chekhov's Gun. At no point is it ever even suggested that Ruby, as a silver-eyed warrior, might have access to crazy grimm-freezing powers. It literally comes out of nowhere (as far as the audience is concerned) to save the day in an otherwise impossible situation. That's a deux ex machina in a nutshell.

Something like, say, Weiss finally using her summoning ability at a decisive moment would be a much better example of a Chekhov's Gun. It's established that she has the potential, she just hasn't been able to use it successfully before. There was nothing to establish Ruby's ability, though, not even in a vague "Ruby has enormously powerful abilities that she has yet to tap into" way.

Which would have been easy to do, incidentally. Have a situation where Ruby gets in over her head somehow, and her powers awaken and save her (or someone on her team) at some point prior to the season three climax. Use the same "no one really saw what happened" trick or else have them tell Ozpin or someone about it and he tells them not to worry themselves over it. There, foreshadowing complete. Now we know that Ruby has some sort of unexplained power that she neither understands nor controls. It's not like they didn't have enough time to write that in somewhere in three seasons before the fall of Beacon.

that was kind of the point? i honestly don't understand why you think it was poorly executed.
I've explained that at length over the last few pages of the thread? I mean, I don't expect everyone to agree with me — if you think it was done well, or the parts that bother me don't bother you, then I'm not going to try to tell you that you're wrong and the transition was objectively bad. It's an opinion, not a fact. But I've explained why I disliked it, so saying "I don't understand why you think that way" without any further, more specific comments or questions is sort of frustrating in terms of having a deeper conversation about it.

the darkness was there from the beginning. Listen to the introduction songs. None of them are happy.
I mentioned that specifically. The second opening was dark, but the actual show itself was not, so I just chalked it up to Soundtrack Dissonance. As far as the darkness being there, it... really wasn't. It was a dark premise, certainly, but the way it was actually portrayed was more like an Adventure-Friendly World than anything else, and while the characters are theoretically in deadly danger during their fights with grimm and criminals, nothing bad ever actually happens to anyone and the only consequences of losing are "the villains get away again", so it's hard to take any claims of darkness seriously.

And then suddenly those same battles with those same grimm and those same villains are getting people killed. Why now, and not before? Because the writers said so. It felt like a ploy for cheap drama rather than a natural progression of the plot. As I mentioned earlier, other series that have done the Cerebus Syndrome transition better make it clear that the rules have changed, things are different now. When Harry Potter goes from dealing with relatively harmless things like students throwing jinxes at each other to facing down Death Eaters who are willing and able to kill, it's made very clear that "this is different from before, things are serious now". When Avatar: the Last Airbender goes from wacky fantasy-world travelling adventures to dueling the Fire Lord for the fate of the world, it's abundantly clear that the stakes are no longer "getting delayed on our journey" or "being put in some embarrassing situation", it's "if we lose, we die and the bad guy takes over the world".

RWBY starts with the "if we lose, we die" thing, but never actually goes through with it. They're fighting horrific demon-monsters that specifically want to destroy humanity, but even when fighting enormously powerful grimm (which happens in the first few episodes of the first season, when they end up fighting the deathstalker and the nevermore), no one's ever so much as moderately injured. We see people get tossed around and a few comments of "my everything hurts", but no one ever actually needs any medical attention. We literally don't see so much as a trip to the nurse's office. That's the way the series works for two full seasons. It's very firmly established that in RWBY, the only thing at risk is Amusing Injuries which will be all better after a good night's sleep, at worst.

Until suddenly that's not the case anymore. No warning. No logical progression of the threat. Same opponents, same fights, except now people are being killed off and permanently maimed.

It just doesn't work, at least for me. My reaction wasn't "holy shit, things are getting intense!", it was "what the hell? Where did this come from? Why now and not before? This is stupid."

It was the struggle of someone accepting what may or may not be their destiny. It was the struggle of someone dealing with their entire world being changed rather than living the comfortable life that she once had.
And it leads nowhere and amounts to nothing. Pyrrha isn't even allowed to make the choice. The choice is forced on her by events — she has to accept Fall's power because they're under attack. And then even that forced non-choice is taken from her — Cinder shows up and takes the power instead of Pyrrha receiving it. Then Pyrrha dies, so she doesn't even get any character development out of it. She doesn't learn anything from the experience or have to live with the consequences.

The whole subplot does nothing but remove Pyrrha's agency as a character. She doesn't do anything, things simply happen to her. She's paralyzed with indecision, then forced by events, then killed. She goes from a confident, competent huntress-in-training at the start of the season to getting Stuffed into the Fridge so Ruby has a reason to activate her Deus ex Machina by the end of it. It abandoned her characterization as an interesting exploration of The Ace with serious Lonely at the Top issues and instead fed her to The Plot Reaper in a way that was contrived and unsatisfying.

What did the subplot add to Pyrrha as a character? She never really questioned her willingness to risk herself to protect the world. The only thing that seemed to be holding her back was the possibility of a relationship with Jaune. But she never actually decides — is it okay to be just a tiny bit selfish and want something for herself, instead of giving everything up for the good of others? Or does she have to regretfully let go of her personal feeling if that's what's necessary to do the most good for the most people? But then they bail on the question, bail on making her live with the consequences of her choice (or lack thereof), and bail on the character entirely. Hell, even if they wanted to kill her off, they could have had her accept the power, use it to fight Cinder, and lose. The plot would have ultimately ended up in the exact same place, but it would have been a much more satisfying end to Pyrrha's character arc.

Not to mention that there's a million better things they could have done with her than killing her. Let's say they had given her Yang's fate (maimed and retreated into Heroic Safe Mode) — then that could have led to something interesting where she becomes a Broken Ace and has to decide her real priorities in life. It would also free up Yang to be a part of Ruby's season four shenanigans — either alongside her with the remains of team JNPR, or separately as a B Story.

Damnit, now I'm doing the thing where I end up writing a Fix Fic in my head for a show that I don't like.

Actually, I think Cinder failed, so in that way Pyrrha succeeded. Remember Ozpin told her that the tower must not fall? Cinder didn't have time to do whatever she wanted to do (and the dragon couldn't destroy it) before Pyrrha and Ruby got there.
The tower may still be physically standing, but it was taken out of commission. It "fell" in the sense that it's no longer operating, and thus communication between kingdoms is down. Cinder absolutely succeeded at that.

edited 13th Apr '16 11:59:27 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31977: Apr 13th 2016 at 11:56:05 AM

I hope Banesaw becomes semi important in Volume 4

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31978: Apr 13th 2016 at 11:56:57 AM

It would be even more amusing if he breaks someone's spine.

I would be happy with him getting his spine broken too, btw.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31979: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:01:44 PM

Maybe he'll have a character arc where he realizes his boss is insane and is killed after refusing to slaughter civilians

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31980: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:03:36 PM

Thank you, thank you. I do my best. grin


Don't.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31981: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:05:05 PM

If I am not to do my best, I could cut down on humor and crank up the vulgarities further. evil grin

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31982: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:05:33 PM

Please don't

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31983: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:08:41 PM

This page is the reason most people abandon this thread in between seasons.
I honestly just skimmed it when I realized it was a bunch of rapid fire one-line responses. I will admit that I did a double take when I realized that an entire page had been posted in the time I was writing up a reply. I mean, yeah, it was a big post, but not that big.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31984: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:09:09 PM

Sooo...I've been meaning to ask this question for a while.

The name of this series is RWBY, is the main character's name Rwby?

The first initials of her team-mates' names are a coincidence?

And Roses are Red, like the Red Ruby.

edited 13th Apr '16 12:10:37 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31985: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:09:14 PM

Nah, the main character of this series is Qrow.

And you can't convince me otherwise, damn it!

edited 13th Apr '16 12:10:03 PM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#31986: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:10:25 PM

Her name is Ruby. The team is RWBY. Ruby and the RWB Ys.

DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31987: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:10:34 PM

wild mass guessWeiss will be the 1st of the 4 to acquire Maiden Powers

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#31988: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:11:23 PM

@Droy Do as you please.

@Jovian And there is also the possibilitie that they might retract what they did and bring her back to life. That would probably enrage half the fanbase and endless debates about her revival would be everywhere.

We cannot say for sure if Pyrrha was going to last long. Maybe she could've died later but people wouldn't be complaining about it? That's what i would have hoped so.

My biggest complain about Pyrrha is that she doesn't get that many meaningful interactions with anyone besides Jaune. That's why i feel sometimes that her character got shafted to levels of almost Satellite Love Interest. At least Vol. 3 gave her something that wasn't Jaunecentric. Until, you know, she dies

Uni cat
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31989: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:11:34 PM

[up][up][up]But she wears black, isn't that weird?

edited 13th Apr '16 12:11:48 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31990: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:13:05 PM

Her clothes have tons of red, though.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31991: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:14:18 PM

Blake also wear's lot's of white and is considered Black (not a race thing)

@faso: DON'T encourage him

edited 13th Apr '16 12:14:57 PM by DarthSion

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31992: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:15:23 PM

I forget, have you watched this show, or are you genuinely asking?

And Jovian, I'll respond in-depth once I have a little time to, uh, give a full read to your posts. You have a tendency towards the wall-o'-text, mate.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#31993: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:16:02 PM

The name of this series is RWBY, is the main character's name Rwby?

The first initials of her team-mates' names are a coincidence?

The main character's name is Ruby, spelled correctly. The name of her team is also pronounced "Ruby", spelled "RWBY" because of the first letter of the first name of all her teammates. (This is a standard thing in the setting — there's a team JNPR (Juniper) and a team BRNZ (Bronze), for example.) The fact that the leader's name and the team name are the same is technically just a coincidence, yes. It's lampshaded at one point when Ruby mentions that it occasionally makes things awkward when it's unclear if someone's referring to her or her team.

For that matter, RWBY also refers to the color-coding of all the characters. R = Ruby = Red, W = Weiss = White, B = Blake = Black, and Y = Yang = Yellow.

edited 13th Apr '16 12:16:50 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#31994: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:16:11 PM

I wonder if there is any significance to the fact that the inside of Weiss' clothes are lined in red.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31995: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:16:26 PM

@Sion -    Too late.   

@Parable - wild mass guessShe will be the first in Team RWBY to bite the Dust.wild mass guess

edited 13th Apr '16 12:17:08 PM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
DarthSion Statement: All meatbags must die from Slokovia Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Statement: All meatbags must die
#31996: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:17:17 PM

One of these days we are going to get a team named DAMN

Cut off one head 2 more shall take it's place! Hail Hydra
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31997: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:17:48 PM

[up]x5 I was genuinely asking about the name...they never spell it in the show.

edited 13th Apr '16 12:18:56 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#31998: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:18:22 PM

Pretty sure they do actually. When the teams are being formed.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#31999: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:20:09 PM

If that wasn't 3 season books ago, maybe it wouldn't be forgotten by me.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#32000: Apr 13th 2016 at 12:20:52 PM

I demand a team named Team DAYM.

OR TSSR. evil grin

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.

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